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Look at these spark plugs. |
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BrianC ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 16 Jun 2011 Location: New York Points: 1619 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 24 May 2018 at 6:52pm |
1948 C wide front. I pulled the plugs and took a group picture.
Tractor starts right up, but after getting hot it starts smoking. Two years ago it (mostly) stopped smoking, now is back to smoking. Worse at lower rpm. The last time I checked compression, it was 100-105. I would like opinions on what the plugs tell me. It is full size image so you can zoom around. Magneto. MS tsx154 carb. |
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Gerald J. ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Hamilton Co, IA Points: 5636 |
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What color is the smoke? Blue smoke comes from burning oil, black smoke from having too rich a mixture from the carburetor. Oil gets burned when the piston rings are worn and not sealing well or the intake valve stems are worn and not sealed. Rich mixture comes from multiple possible sources. An air hose from air cleaner to carburetor with a loose lining when warm will act like a choke. A choke cable not anchored near the carburetor can let the choke close from vacuum and intake air flow. A dirty air cleaner can begin to plug and restrict air into the carburetor. Mud dauber's or wasp nests in the air intake plumbing restrict air flow like a partially closed choke.
The main jet adjustment in the carburetor can be set rich. On my gas MF135 I found it plowed better when running slightly rich at full throttle. In gas power aircraft when wanting full power for take off they run full rich, then when at cruising altitude the pilot has a knob that can lean the mixture considerably for significantly improved fuel economy. Besides exhaust gas temperature (running lean makes for hot exhaust) their is a fuel flow gauge to show the effect of the mixture adjustment. Gerald J. |
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jaybmiller ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Greensville,Ont Points: 24415 |
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OK, those plugs look real OILY to me ( shiny black = oil ),probably bluish smoke out the stack....reminds me of 'Paris' here.... it needs rings and valve seals and some TLC.
I've got a B&S in a rider...same thing, start great ,runs OK, then 10-15 minutes later it's killing all the skeeters in the field ! Rings I figure.... jay |
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
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DougS ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Location: Iowa Points: 2490 |
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Oil gets thinner as it warms up. Thinner oil can sneak past the rings and valve guides. You can try thicker oil as a stopgap in the summer months. 20w-50 perhaps.
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Butch(OH) ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Lucerne Ohio Points: 3835 |
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Pictures of plugs tell little to a person that knows nothing about what the tractor is doing or how long the plugs have been in service but things look pretty oily and rich. Tractors that are started and stopped a lot and just putter around are not going to have brown plug colors as will one that is warmed up and worked, in good shape mechanically and in good state of tune.. Id guess you have both an oiling issue and a rich condition but that's just a guess. Knowing what color the smoke is would help.
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BrianC ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 16 Jun 2011 Location: New York Points: 1619 |
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Those plugs are the Autolite 295. I bet they have about just 12 hours operating time.
The smoke is not black. It looks whitish or light grey. I really can't see blue in there. The coolant is steady in level, green and clean, I see no oil on top, even after months of resting. Same with the oil level it, is not rising. Last year I changed the oil cold after it was sitting all winter. I wanted to see if the first fluid out would be water. It was not, just oil. I remember my dad would pull the head and grind in the valves. The original tank was rusty and he would be fiddling with the fuel bowl, take apart the carb, blow out junk. I had the carb rebuilt and an inline fuel filter installed. And the current tank is from a CA, less rusty and lined. He used to change plugs often. The original FB magneto was replaced with American Bosch, I have a new Wico on it now. So with rebuilt carb and new magneto, it starts with just a stab of the starter rod. I have to let off the choke pretty quickly or it will stumble and make black smoke. The choke rod is flimsy but works. Hard to tell which parts are original or not. But one issue is the carb air inlet does not exactly match (concentric) to the oil filter outlet. I would have to add about 1/4" spacer between the carb and intake manifold to get them lined up. So the mismatch is bridged awkwardly with the intake hose. The oil filter is bolted to the block with 4 bolts, I guess that has to be original and it ain't going anywhere. Was the Marvel tsx154 offered on the 1948 C? If yes, is there a 1/4" or so thick spacer I am missing? Or maybe a different oil filter housing for Zenith vs MS carbs. My guess is the intake valves guides are leaking as the primary smoke issue. But the engine is worn, I have bad crankshaft end play for one thing. 70 years old now. Thanks for you help. |
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Stan IL&TN ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Elvis Land Points: 6730 |
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Brian in my opinion which is always wrong as far as the wife is concerned, I would run it with heavier oil this summer and then consider a rebuild next winter. I would also try leaning it out some this summer, maybe a quarter or half turn on the main jet at a time and see if things improve.
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1957 WD45 dad's first AC
1968 one-seventy 1956 F40 Ferguson |
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Brian Jasper co. Ia ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Prairie City Ia Points: 10508 |
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A cold running engine will foul the plugs even when everything else is correct. If it doesn't have, put a 195 degree thermostat in it and get the engine hot. A hot engine will like a leaner carburetor setting. A leaner mixture will burn cleaner.
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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CTuckerNWIL ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: NW Illinois Points: 22823 |
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If it were mine, I would make it work(plowing would be WORK) with some Sea Foam in the gas for at least several hours and go to the next hotter plug. My CA(which had sat in the shed at Dad's for 10 years) started fouling #1 plug after just a few hours of mowing with the L59. I went to a hotter plug and ran some Sea Foam in it and mowed for 2 years without a hickup.
Edited by CTuckerNWIL - 25 May 2018 at 9:17am |
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http://www.ae-ta.com
Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
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BrianC ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 16 Jun 2011 Location: New York Points: 1619 |
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I meant air filter housing (not oil filter) not aligning with the carburetor. And there are just two holes on the air filter body, not four like I said.
Anyone know why these don't align? Were most of the of the C's equipped with the Marvel-Shebler? My tractor is s/n C59611. The tag says tsx154. |
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BrianC ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 16 Jun 2011 Location: New York Points: 1619 |
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I replaced the plugs with a set of NGK B4. However I don't know if the B4 is considered
hotter of colder than the Autolite 295. The Marvel Schebler TSX154 I have is the fixed jet (Type A). So no opportunity to adjust mixture. In general, when a carb starts to accumulate dirt at the main jet/needle, it goes towards a lean mixture? How about a fixed jet? I can see dirt at the float needle causing either rich or lean condition. It is now 7 1/2 years since it was worked on, by Denny's carb shop, if I remember correct. That could be long enough for the E10 gas to start crapping up the carb? |
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BrianC ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 16 Jun 2011 Location: New York Points: 1619 |
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I timed the tractor using strobe light.
Took a while to find the Fire mark (30BTDC) on the flywheel. Never did find the C mark. I cleaned it and painted the mark. Then checked with the light. I had it advanced too far when I did it by ear. So I was running around with it advanced some. How much, maybe 4 degrees? No one commented on the carb intake and air filter housing not aligning. I guess Allis must have drilled the mounting holes in wrong location. So soon I will elongate the mounting holes in the air filter to pick it up some. But it makes me uneasy to do so. I don't think the timing or air filter has anything to do with the fouled plugs. It does take a long time to get it warm if all I am doing is driving around. But I did get the tractor hot while cultivating. |
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CTuckerNWIL ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: NW Illinois Points: 22823 |
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It probably had a Zenith carb to begin with.
If a quarter inch will line it up, just add an insulator block that thick in place of the original carburetor gasket. You can make your own out of gasket material. I did that on an old 250-6 Chevy once to keep the carb throat from freezing up. Don't know how it affected the freezing problem, but it did.
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http://www.ae-ta.com
Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
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JC-WI ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: wisconsin Points: 34259 |
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When you see plugs like these... ![]() and then discover a intake hose looking like this.... ![]() You can guess what caused the plugs to look like they do.... But I think your plugs look like just to rich of fuel setting. Check your jet number and see if it is the correct jet and then see if somebody reamed it out or got high altitude jet in it....
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He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that." |
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BrianC ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 16 Jun 2011 Location: New York Points: 1619 |
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Wow those plugs look even worse than mine, yuk.
Air filter hose, yes I seem to have an issue surrounding my air filter hose setup. Maybe I will build a spacer before whacking away metal. Or look for dimensions on MS carbs. Could I have a Frankenstein carburetor. Something is not right. So I have have another question regarding air leaks. I have read that worn throttle shaft/bushings can let through enough air to affect operation. Same with warped manifold or deteriorated manifold gasket. And one test for this is to spray ether or maybe propane (or something else?) around the joints. I guess if air is sucking through, it will bring the gas in also and make the engine speed up. What is the way to do this? The manifold is really age "textured". And another on air leaks- if I pull the cap off my air filter intake stack and place my hand or rubber ball firmly over the hole, should my engine stop? What if it keeps on chugging? My does, it won't actually stop, goes very low in rpm, but keeps on going. This seems to be proof that air is getting in by alternate means. The air filter oil bowl fits very nice, no dents. It is the type with the two snap latches. Carburetor jet- with a fixed jet, someone needed to have installed the correct size. Maybe the carb shop thought it was for a WD45, or a Ford 172 cu inch. So yes, I need to look into that. Does the disc stamped TSX-154 imply which jet to use? Agco parts book says p/n#70222047 is the discharge tube. I guess that is the jet. Is there a Marvel-Schebler book online. Does an exhaust gas analyzer help with jetting and mixture verification. On the bright side, it does run, I can cultivate. Thanks again. |
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BrianC ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 16 Jun 2011 Location: New York Points: 1619 |
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I solved my own problem. Found out the air filter has slotted holes to mount to block, and that was the reason it did not align with the carburetor. You can see a lot just by looking.
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