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loader problems

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dt1050 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 21 Mar 2018 at 10:02am
I recently replaced my two cylinders that tilt the bucket on my d17.  I had a machine shop cut down, weld and repack a set of cylinders that I got with the tractor.  now the loader bucket won't stay in place it keeps creeping down to the dump position.  I can lift the tractor off the ground with the tilt cylinders and it will stay that way for hours with out leaking down, but when I curl the bucket back as soon as I let off the pressure the bucket starts to tilt down?  I tried putting one of the old cylin)ers on (I only have 1 original cylinder) and it did the same thing.  I tried working the lever back and forth for 30-40 minutes in a blizzard this morning to try and work out any air in the lines, but no luck same problem.  any ideas?

the reworked cylinders are 2.5 with a 1.25 piston the old cylinders are 3 inch x 1.5, I understand there smaller but if the cylinders can lift and hold the tractor up they should be able to hold up a empty bucket?  thanks in advance dt.

the loader is ran off a front mounted pump.  henry loader. d17 series 1.


Edited by dt1050 - 21 Mar 2018 at 10:03am
Just cause it's orange don't make it a tractor, there's only one..Allis Chalmers
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mintenfarmer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mintenfarmer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2018 at 10:18am
Two things come to my mind right away, is your valve leaking from one side or I doubt it could be something in a seal in a cylinder since they both go down. So probably the valve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dt1050 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2018 at 10:35am
hoses are new and I don't see any leaks? 

Edited by dt1050 - 21 Mar 2018 at 10:36am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allisrutledge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2018 at 10:58am
Try reversing the lines or switch the bucket lines with the lift lines to check the valve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dt1050 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2018 at 11:44am
switched the lines raise and lower to tilt and dump and vice versa got the same results, this time I noticed whe curling the bucket back it never seems to hit a stop that boggs the tractor down?  when a cylinder hits the end of the stroke it will bogg the tractor down when dumping the bucket or raise or lowering it, but now when curling the bucket back?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farmboy520 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2018 at 1:03pm
Where did you get these new cylinders? It almost sounds like to me that there is either air in the lines, the cylinders are rephrasing, or the valve is leaking on the one side.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dt1050 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2018 at 1:23pm
the cylinders came with the tractor and I sent them off to a machine shop to get shortened. they were about 6 inches to long retracted. they cut them down, welded them and repacked them.

update:  I took the reworked cylinders off and just hooked up the old rusty one from the loader and plugged the other lines (since I only have 1 of the old  cylinders) and it works like it should, the bucket stays in place with only 1 cylinder?  apperently there is something wrong with the cylinders I had reworked.

I should mention the cylinders are green...maybe that's the problem...lol just joking fella's. at this point I need a laugh. been working on this thing all day in a miserable snow storm!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allisrutledge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2018 at 1:25pm
You have checked to see if the same line, say port one ,goes to the same end on both cylinders? Port 2 both go to the other 3rd of cylinders.other words their not mixed up at the tees?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dt1050 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2018 at 1:26pm
yep all plumbed the same way
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allisrutledge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2018 at 1:27pm
End. I hate it when this stupid tablet thing thinks it knows what I want to say.sorry ,i hope you get it fixed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allisrutledge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2018 at 1:34pm
Are you using the tractor valve or does the loader have its own valve?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shameless dude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2018 at 1:43pm
are they high pressure or low pressure working cylinders? don't know if that would make a difference or not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dt1050 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2018 at 3:32pm
AngryAngry  I talked to the guy who actually reworked the cylinders and he stated that they aren't true dual acting cylinders.  there is a cup in the cylinder and it will only allow pressure in one direction and not both.  he said they could order some parts and machine them so they are dual acting cylinders but is unsure of the price....I aready have $300 in the cylinders.  I would have figured since they knew they were tilt cylinders for a loader they would have told me they wouldn't work!!!AngryAngryAngry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2018 at 3:44pm
man I feel for you, tossing good money after bad...
you NEED double acting cylinders, plain and simple,basic Hydraulics101. In the mood I'm in I could almost throw you the pair sitting here collecting dust.
my rant...
I just bought a new Lincoln welder AC-225 to replace my 30 yr old one. It needs a $2 part,but repair guy 30 miles away says new completeswitch, 104$ + 210$ labour + 13% taxes. Add 2 hrs and gas and ,well, I bought a NEW same  welder for LESS money AND I get 3 yr warranty !
Now I've Lincoln head office(Toronto) shipping me the switch from CLEVELAND as NO parts are stocked in Canada !! $40 switch and delivery !!
I'm still shaking my head of this..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dt1050 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2018 at 3:48pm
wow, that dont make ya mad at all.. buy a new welder and then they'll ship you the part for $30. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dt1050 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2018 at 4:56am
thanks for all the suggestions and help.  still waiting for estimate on cylinders, but have no clue what to do next?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2018 at 5:36am

Could you reverse the cylinders ( change end for end ) so that the good high pressure side keeps the bucket from tipping down, and the leaky side is for tilting bucket down.

Gary
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2018 at 5:56am
this ones really bugging me...like all night long... I'd try that 'surplus hydraulics' place guys here talk about, if you don't have time, just post the
'pin to pin' dimension
cylinder size ( 2.5 or 3 will do you say)
rod size ( you had 1.25) , hole size(for pins)
since it's external pump , I'm guessing 1500PSI will be fine
my gut says they might be $100 each and lots of options...

Jay
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote B26240 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2018 at 6:11am
If you had the work done at a real machine shop they should be able to make new pistons that will take standard packing. also since you had them cut them down and they aren't working for you I would think they will help you and give you a break on the price.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allisrutledge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2018 at 6:53am
I have also used surplus center but the last project I used 2 shops close to me, Dalton hydraulics in Blaine TN and Bailey hydraulics in knoxville. Both have websites and are competitive on prices. Check them out. As said before you will need pin size ,closed length(centerline of pin to pin) bore and stroke ,welded or rodded and end style. Seems to me there is a Hyd place in Roanoke va also but never dealt with them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dt1050 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2018 at 7:57am
well it gets even better, apperntly the cylinders I have are only held in place with a roll pin on the one side, so when back dragging the only thing keeping my piston from fling out is a small roll pin!!! again some handy info to have had before spending the money to have them reworked.  the machine shop suggest getting a new cylinder and the only help they are willing to do is sell me them at cost + shipping.AngryAngry

if anybodys got a cylinder laying around thats aprox.

34 1/2 inches collapsed
52 1/4           extended
3                    diameter
1.5                 piston diameter
1                    pins

thanks dt.  I'll try looking on the net and see what I can find.  what a cluster.   I got a nice set of paper wieghts I'll sell ya for $300Angry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2018 at 9:05am
It's kinda sad, when a repair shop takes on a job they don't know how to do and still charge you for it when it doesn't work. It should have clear, to anyone working on the cylinders, that they weren't made for 2 way operation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allisrutledge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2018 at 10:06am
I'm confused .can you post pics of the cyl they modified? They must have been only one hose connection with a vent on the other and they welded a thread fitting on the vent end?? I know it don't matter at this point but I'm just curious.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dt1050 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2018 at 10:19am
I'll try to get a pick for ya, but the cylinders did have a hose on each end, but I guess they will only hold pressure one direction. while they will move with hydraulic pressure in both directions they will only hold the pressure one way?  

from what I understand there is a gap around the piston. the little cup that's in there will expand when hydraulic pressure is added and it makes a seal that holds the pressure, but the cup will only face one direction.  when you pull the lever the other direction it will let the oil by pass the little cup thing. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allisrutledge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2018 at 11:20am
I just got a bailies sale book and cylinders are 15% off and free shipping. 18o0 8o0 1810
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dt1050 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2018 at 3:38pm
here's a couple of pics of the cylinders I had reworked



Just cause it's orange don't make it a tractor, there's only one..Allis Chalmers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2018 at 10:12am
Okay, so what you've got here...

Your original cylinder was a SINGLE ACTING cylinder... that means it used return force to push back to the other end.  There's obviously a difference in the plumbing, there's also a difference in the piston seal.  The piston of a single-acting acts like the seal in an engine- compression/combustion pressure forces it to seat and seal.  Return stroke though... it doesn't.

on the hydraulic cylinder, a simple 'cup' seal (like what's used in many water wells) seals by pressure, and slides basically 'free' without it. 

And the piston is MADE for the type of seal application.

You've got the wrong piston and seal.

If it were in my garage, I'd take it apart, remove the piston, and find an appropriate piston/seal to put in it's place.  Frequently, the piston head is held to the rod with a large locknut.  Yours is probably serviceable (if they used a removable end packing), and if so, pull one apart, get a good look at the piston. 

DON'T HAVE ONE MADE BY THE MACHINE SHOP!

Look at Bailey's, and other hydraulics supply places... they have standard piston sizes... you can get one with matching seals off their CNC line for substantially less than local machine shop.  You MIGHT hafta have the machine shop bore it to custom-fit your rods, but there's a good chance you'll find a bolt-on solution.

I wouldn't be too sore at the machine shop for doing what you asked... that guy may not have had a clue about hydraulic piston head/seal, or he may have thought you WANTED it that way.  See, there are many machines that use SINGLE ACTING cylinders with TWO HOSES.  Why two hoses?  several reasons:
1: Because they use the volumetric offset to keep reservoir size down
2: Allows the hydraulic system to bleed itself rapidly
3: Allows the cylinder to ACT like a dual, but without having pressure (think gentle handling of a hay bale, or float function of a ground implement) applied on the return stroke.
4:  Allows the cylinder to be used as a variable-rate DAMPER

An excellent example of this function is a cylinder set up for this intentionally on a vertical metal-cutting bandsaw... it will only lower-so-fast.

Don't sweat it- be patient, you'll find a reasonable fix. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dt1050 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2018 at 4:11pm
I guess what happened was the person I talked to owns the shop and new the cylinders  were for a backhoe, he told the person that does the machining what needed done, but not what they were for. so the fella tore them down and did the work, he had no idea they needed to be double acting.  I guess it is what it is,  I'm just going to order a cylinder for the one side, then once I save up some more cash I'll replace the other side.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave in PA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2018 at 4:15pm
Why would a back-hoe not be the same/double cylinder?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HudCo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2018 at 9:51pm
here s my take on this picture here if the piston is bypassing in there on the piston the rams will uselley stall out somewhere in the middle if the valve is working wright when the pressure equalizes until the valve is moved.    on that it would be going from the small side to the big side so its not going to equal up the pressure and sink down.   it also looks to me like the end that they shorted they could have extended them cut the bottom off in the band saw washed it out rewelded  shortend the pin end on the rod  and never actucly take the rod and piston out. i think iwould just repack those pistons probley would not have to do the gland unless they already leak to the out side,  but kits usually include the gland packing on deere cylinders kits any ways
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