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llss built thoughts

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ToddnwIl View Drop Down
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    Posted: 02 Dec 2023 at 12:51am
Nite dreaming of building a llss. Can the 301 still be built to compete with today's top running tractors? I'm in the badger state/ ecipa pulling groups area. And is diesel still the route to go? I'd be more comfortable working on diesel but alcohol could be an interesting build... or do I press the easy button and pull a white with a cummins?   Anyways. Just kinda quite around these parts so be fun to here the comments!

Edited by ToddnwIl - 02 Dec 2023 at 2:01am
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PaulB View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaulB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2023 at 7:14am
My opinions: 
 First I think the parameters of the LLSS class are out of line for e class name. 
    7700 pounds is not light, yes lighter than 10,500. a 5500 class would be more like it. there are quite a number of different tractors that could be built to put on a good show comparable to bigger tractors if the sled would be set properly.
   Limited: Not really when if I'm correct that 466 engines are allowed. A 360 limit would cut out many of the check writers as the smaller engines (5.9 Cummins the exception) are not quite the off the shelf and the 466 is. 
     Building a 180/185 with a 301 (or could be built to 360) would be a great tractor for these parameters .   There are also many tractors of other colors that could easily fit into 5500 pounds with an engine of 360 CID or less.  Hauling a 5500 tractor around is much easier that something 10,500. 
   I know this is like blowing into the wind, but in time some may realize the benefits of a true lightweight class. With the same thoughts the "component tractors" that are allowed are nothing more than a modifieds with sheet metal. 


Edited by PaulB - 02 Dec 2023 at 7:15am
If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
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injpumpEd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote injpumpEd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2023 at 10:16am
LLSS around here is 6400? Honestly a 301 would be tough to make competitive, a 5.9L in an AC or White would be a more logical route. The one thing a 301 gets in llss is twin chargers if kept under 315 cid. The nice thing Todd, you could pull in ISP LSS also, and there's times the big hp tractors have trouble getting down the track. 
210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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ToddnwIl View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ToddnwIl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2023 at 11:07am
I figured the 301 was kinda out. I wasn't sure if I could slide a cummins in an allis and get away with it. But figured my check book would enjoy
that the best. I'm just not sure we could build anything not orange.
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WF owner View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WF owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 2023 at 5:52am
I'm curious about this, but aren't LLSS "component" tractors? I was under the impression that other engines, transmissions and differentials (other than stock) could be used. 
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injpumpEd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote injpumpEd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 2023 at 8:35am
LSS Light Super Stock can be component in most areas. LLSS Light Limited Super Stock typically require a true tractor rearend, but I'm sure components will be allowed in the near future, if not already. I would imagine a 5.9 Cummins would be allowed in an AC since some agco allis tractors came with them. Todd, take a look at ISP's 7000# Profield Diesel tractors, any color can run a 5.9L cummins, and they are a great class, mixed with some N/A Alcohol tractors on the NSS side of the class. 
210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ToddnwIl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 2023 at 10:08am
That class has definitely caught my eye. Looks like a nice class with color all around and very competitive. What chassis would you use ed? 180?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote injpumpEd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 2023 at 12:40pm
I was going to build a 190XT for that class, then I had a change of direction when I bought the 7040. A 180/185 would be fine and a little faster. I was going to use one of Mack's overdrive profab boxes in the 190. 
210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DanWi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 2023 at 1:39pm
Frey's used to have a very strong running LLSS allis in Badger State. I haven't gotten to many pulls the last years; I don't know what happened to that tractor. I think they still do tractor repairs and injection pumps.  There are a few guys in the Badger State club that build tractors. Maybe you could talk to a few of them, and they can point in the right direction.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 2023 at 6:17pm
180/185 gearing is 18% faster than a 190-200 chassis. The loss of weight is in the final drive area, so when the final drives are tipped back one hole, that extra weight can all go on the nose. Hard to beat that when you're under a 7K weight class.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ToddnwIl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2023 at 12:35pm
I have heard that rolling the final drives backs makes a huge difference.   Is alot needed to make a 180 chassis fit 7000 pounds. And will the transmission take the horsepower...
Ed what kinda horsepower is needed to run that class... I'm not sure I'll be able to keep pace with that case!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WF owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2023 at 9:17pm
One-Eighty's ruled the 5000 lb. SS class back in the day. 

Back when I was pulling farm stock in the 70's, I was able to make the 7000 lb. class with Dad's One-Eighty with the factory (heavy) front end and the whole three-point hitch, two batteries, and all the factory running boards. So to answer your question, you should be able to make the LSS or LLSS class easily, even with the required safety equipment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2023 at 12:26am
The transmission has no problem when in road gear. Straight thru direct drive.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bsallis180 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2023 at 6:46am
ECI to my knowledge has a smooth bore 3x4 turbo rule and with a 301”315” cubic inch limit is allowed 2 3x4 smooth bore turbos and a intercooler the next CI limit would be 316-410 that would let you run one turbo and a intercooler. The rest of the country was allowed to run a 3x4 slotted turbo till this year where again the rest is alowed a 3.4x4 smooth bore turbo. With a 301 head it’s pretty difficult to make the 15-1800hp. With the 3.4inlet the HP numbers are going up to say the 18-2000hp mark with much more flow it’s making anything vintage motor wise hard to compleat. Even at that you would need fasted gearing at 18.5 or 19:1 and a 180 is 22:1ad with the HP numbers the diff with flex being a 2 pin it will clan the teeth right off the ring. A late model 190/200 diff with D19 bulls would be the best reared and still be at a light weight and strong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote injpumpEd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2023 at 9:20am
Todd, the 7000# profield class is rumored to be around 1000hp.
210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KevinON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 2023 at 11:14am
I would think that most rules would allow the Cummins to be put in an AC, due to the heritage line rule.  I know our club would allow it.  My dream is to end my pulling career with a 180 LLPS tractor in our club.  Will most likely be a 301 twin turbo.  I am building a 7000lb 180 for a super light mod farm class, and will build in such a way to be able to move up.  We are allowed P pumps in our mod farm class, so the pump will be there.  One builder told me that the Cummins is cheaper to build, but you will spend money putting it in the tractor.  Money is spent either way, I guess....lol!
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