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Live Pto:

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    Posted: 16 Jun 2023 at 7:07am
I'd like to replace my 1000 Ford tractor, (Shibaura built) with something AC branded but want diesel, and live PTO. I only use my little Ford for spraying nowadays, but it's kind of a pain to stop and shift to neutral so the pto pump will turn to make pressure allowing stationary hand spraying. Using my "White 2-55" is much easier, but the tractor is physically too large to get into some areas needed.

What would be one of the smaller AC tractors fitting the bill of diesel engine and live pto?

Thanks,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Allis dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2023 at 2:42pm
unless may be there was a small 6000 series, I can't think on a 30-50HP Allis that had actual live PTO. Other will now more.

What about like a Massey 235? about 40HP and the size of a Ford 600 series
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2023 at 2:48pm
Allis 5030 and 5040 came with a Diesel  ........ some sites list the PTO as "live"... but im not sure exactly how they worked..  ( 30- 40 HP tractor).
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2023 at 3:58pm
Thanks guys. I posed the same question to the implement dealer I help out as they were an Allis-Chalmers dealer till the end staying with AGCO through today. He tells me a 5050 is a good tractor with live PTO and diesel, but 100% Fiat built and hard to get anything for. Too early to be looking at another brand and I actually know where a 5050 is, but it's nice and priced accordingly.

I have room to add a belt drive hydraulic pump, or the tractor has live hydraulics and a functioning single remote. I've not used the remote but it does load the tractor engine going over the relief valve so I should probably plumb into this to ascertain flow. I may then be able to mount a small hydraulic motor with a six spline PTO output shaft to drive the roller pump making for a live PTO.

I like the little tractor a lot so this may be a viable option. I'm not settled on anything so will also keep looking.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2023 at 4:40pm
there was a post a few weeks ago about a guy that wanted live hydraulics on a small B ro C and ended up with an electric motor / pump off a snow plow ( for a pickup) or something like that...


 You could do the same with a sprayer... Use a 12 v electric motor to drive your pump, or just change out to an electric motor/ pump built for a spray unit.... I have a small sprayer that has a 12 v motor about the size of a windshield motor with a small pump and puts out 2.5 GPM and works good with 2 wands or 3-4 ground nozzles... Your PTO is running 540 rpm....eliminate that PUMP.... switch that for an electric pump / motor running 3000 rpm and it dont have to be so big... What size is the discharge hose ?


Edited by steve(ill) - 16 Jun 2023 at 4:45pm
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2023 at 4:42pm
maybe something like this ??


Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim.ME Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2023 at 4:46pm
I don't think one of the 12-volt electric pump units would work well to run a motor in the long run, I don't think they are intended for that type of duty cycle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary Burnett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2023 at 5:02pm
Originally posted by Codger Codger wrote:

Thanks guys. I posed the same question to the implement dealer I help out as they were an Allis-Chalmers dealer till the end staying with AGCO through today. He tells me a 5050 is a good tractor with live PTO and diesel, but 100% Fiat built and hard to get anything for. Too early to be looking at another brand and I actually know where a 5050 is, but it's nice and priced accordingly.

I have room to add a belt drive hydraulic pump, or the tractor has live hydraulics and a functioning single remote. I've not used the remote but it does load the tractor engine going over the relief valve so I should probably plumb into this to ascertain flow. I may then be able to mount a small hydraulic motor with a six spline PTO output shaft to drive the roller pump making for a live PTO.

I like the little tractor a lot so this may be a viable option. I'm not settled on anything so will also keep looking.

Thanks,

Those Fiat built tractors are very good tractors and almost any part can be gotten off ebay at a very reasonable cost.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2023 at 6:10pm
Sprayer is Demco and has fold out booms for 16' coverage at 12" nozzle height @90psi. I don't know gpm and pump is cast iron six roller style. Hoses are 3/4" in and out. The pressure washer style hand applicator works well also at 50 - 90 psi.

There is no pulsing in the output flow as many diaphragm style pumps offer. Tractor handles the full 60 gallon solution tank well and is not light on the steer axle. Perfect size for the task in my application. 

It would be  really nice to not have to  shift to neutral and let the clutch out to spot spray from the tractor seat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaulB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2023 at 6:10pm
How did we ever manage to farm with tractors that didn't have live PTOs and hydraulics? We didn't know any better and lived with it.
If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2023 at 6:15pm
Originally posted by PaulB PaulB wrote:

How did we ever manage to farm with tractors that didn't have live PTOs and hydraulics? We didn't know any better and lived with it.

I certainly agree and have lived with it. However it's like automotive air  conditioning or a cabbed tractor with air conditioning to farm with, it's available and I'm willing to pay for it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gatz in NE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2023 at 6:44pm
the 5040 & (40 hp) 5050 (50 hp) had live PTO
It was controlled via a two-stage foot clutch.  Ground drive was released first, allowing PTO to continue running.  
It was sometimes difficult to sense just where the ground release position of the clutch pedal was without further disengaging the PTO
I often thought of putting an adjustable spring-loaded stop under the clutch pedal.
Also, the PTO was a bit of a challenge to engage without clashing gears……nature of the beast I guess.
I really liked the 5040 I had for a few years.  Good power steering. Handy size.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrianC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2023 at 7:15pm
The Allis 160 has live PTO (two stage clutch), and diesel.
Another Ford could be the 3 cylinder 2000 or 3000. That would be my pick because of
easy parts availability.
Two stage clutches can be touchy as Gatz mentioned.
Don't the later model Allis D10/D12 (gas only) have independent PTO?
Also Oliver 550.
Many Massey Ferguson.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2023 at 7:26pm
Independent PTO is what my White has. Couldn't remember that name but once engaged it runs constantly whether clutch pedal is pushed down or  not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gatz in NE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2023 at 7:57pm
?   so, how is the PTO dis-engaged.
Tractor-Data describes the White 2-55 as having live PTO
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2023 at 8:06pm
There is a shifter on the floor that is PTO engaged or not, and a handle to the left of the steering column you ease forward into engaged as it is a clutch basket affair like steering clutches on a dozer. It is an "over center" type feel to engage the PTO but is easy engagement. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2023 at 8:43pm
If your 60 gallon tank will last 12 minutes, then your pumping 5 GPM..... the electric pump above is 60 psi instead of your 90 psi... but for $110. it is a very simple "TEST" that might solve your problem ?? 
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marlyn nwia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2023 at 9:13pm
I would discontinue farming if I was denied my D-12 III. Live PTO and live hydraulics.   PTO rotary pump produces great volume and great pressure and very reliable. I have a left and a right bloomless nozzles that cover 16 feet. I also have a wand for hand spraying.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WF owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2023 at 6:20am
I often have PTO arguments with some non-AC guys. 

Allis Chalmers was the first to build a tractor with "live PTO". Live PTO is the ability to stop tractor movement without stopping the PTO. AC did this for many years with the hand clutch on the CA, WD and WD45 (and maybe more models that I am not thinking of) and the power director on many subsequent models.

Independent PTO is completely different. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2023 at 7:14am
[QUOTE=WF owner]I often have PTO arguments with some non-AC guys. 

Allis Chalmers was the first to build a tractor with "live PTO". Live PTO is the ability to stop tractor movement without stopping the PTO. AC did this for many years with the hand clutch on the CA, WD and WD45 (and maybe more models that I am not thinking of) and the power director on many subsequent models.

Independent PTO is completely different. 
[/QUOTE

That makes sense to me. "Live PTO" seemingly has become a generic term much the same as "Band-Aid". Regardless, what I'm after is the ability to stop the tractor without the PTO ceasing rotation and maintaining steady rotation if the engine speed is not altered.

I've not operated a tractor with a hand clutch in almost 45 years but I remember the automotive salvage yard I worked at for a short time had a tractor with one and loader forks. I don't remember if it were an Allis or not, but they wanted you to use the hand clutch instead of the foot clutch for some reason, but again, I don't remember or know why. Good running tractor I do remember as I rebuilt the carburetor, installed a new exhaust manifold and muffler.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WF owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2023 at 7:24am
On everything AC, except the CA, the hand clutch or Power Director runs in oil. They will take a lot more abuse than a dry regular foot clutch.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2023 at 7:49am
[QUOTE=steve(ill)]If your 60 gallon tank will last 12 minutes, then your pumping 5 GPM..... the electric pump above is 60 psi instead of your 90 psi... but for $110. it is a very simple "TEST" that might solve your problem ?? [/QUOTE

That would be effective and I will see how it does with the installed nozzles. I have others also for different chemicals or flow rates, but have not used them and they remain in the package. Demco has revised their online site and my sprayer type is discontinued, but they call it a rear mount 60 gallon type. The electric pump type offered is 5gpm @50psi, but I opted for the six roller cast iron pump and larger nozzles for more versatility. This pump easily reaches 100psi and will maintain it while washing the driveway with the hand wand as instance. I'm almost thinking it is a "Hy-Pro" pump as it is blue in color. Seems to me Delavan pumps are black.

Not much difference between this sprayer and a "Fimco" brand found at the local farm stores as both use "Tee-Jet" plumbing and nozzles, but the welded frame, and tank are of much better construction I feel. The agitator in the tank is very aggressive and keeps chemicals mixed well. It also empties completely when spraying. I may upgrade it to electric solenoid valves but for now I can easily reach the "on-off" flip lever while driving. I've looked at those solenoid valves and they are rather proud of them too.

Here is a breakdown of my sprayer shown on pages 26 - 28 of the manual:



Edited by Codger - 17 Jun 2023 at 8:14am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CORLEWFARM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2023 at 8:02am
I've bought many D series and 100 series dirt cheap because owners think that they didn't have live pto after they got them. They would sell them dirt cheap just to get rid of them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2023 at 8:06am
Originally posted by WF owner WF owner wrote:

On everything AC, except the CA, the hand clutch or Power Director runs in oil. They will take a lot more abuse than a dry regular foot clutch.


This tractor was yellow and not a repaint then. It did have a three point on the rear with a weight box filled with concrete. I do not remember a pto shaft, but it's been a long time. Did have six foot forks and would lift a then medium sized car easily and carry it, but got a little "squirmy" if the tires were clear of the ground about five feet and attempting to turn the tractor. It got used a lot loading/unloading the crusher.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray54 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2023 at 11:40am
Just a thought , if the Ford is working satisfactorily for running the spray boom ,add a 12V pump to run the hand wand. Tons cheaper than another tractor.   But I understand, on the fun of hunting for another tractor.

So far I have had better luck with Surflow than any of the other 12V pumps I have used. I really like using a 12V pump for running a hand wand. 


Edited by Ray54 - 17 Jun 2023 at 11:42am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TramwayGuy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2023 at 12:46pm
“.Allis 5030 and 5040 came with a Diesel ........ some sites list the PTO as "live"..”

I have a 5030 and it is not ‘live’ or ‘independent’. It is transmission driven; but it has a built-in overrunning clutch, making it OK for brush mowing.
But it does have live hydraulics.

I sent an email to Tractordata.com in an effort to change that information and they didn’t believe me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2023 at 1:42pm
Originally posted by Ray54 Ray54 wrote:

Just a thought , if the Ford is working satisfactorily for running the spray boom ,add a 12V pump to run the hand wand. Tons cheaper than another tractor.   But I understand, on the fun of hunting for another tractor.

So far I have had better luck with Surflow than any of the other 12V pumps I have used. I really like using a 12V pump for running a hand wand. 


This is a good idea Ray and plenty of room to incorporate the electric pump. I like everything about the sprayer very near 100%.

I'll see how much flow I am running through the spray wand at the 60psi I like and quite possibly order a pump to match performance.

I too have had the best luck with Shurflo pumps and have three of them. One is on my carpet extractor machine, and another on an evaporative cooler for use in the shop during summer. Third is a ready spare and they are all rated at 2.1gpm @ 100psi. These however are all 120VAC operation. I'll look further into the one Steve posted as that one may be the ticket also. I keep the sprayer inside the heated shop with RV anti-freeze in it so no corrosion or freezing to be concerned with.

I really like that little Ford tractor and it has a dedicated use now. The White replaced it in the rear mount finish mower scenario so need to find justification and this need fits. Once I get this idiosyncrasy surmounted, it will really fit the bill.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2023 at 2:39pm
Attached is a cut sheet from the pump series Steve posted. Typical of these small pumps the output flow diminishes rapidly as the discharge pressure, (or head) is increased:


And this is a cut sheet from a Remco pump which are sold in this area and are good pumps:


Both pumps are similar in performance so going to fill the sprayer and do some testing to establish a baseline.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2023 at 4:13pm
With a calibrated 60psi spraying pressure during application, the hand wand moves 2.1gpm of product adjusted wide open for maximum flow. Evaluating the distance and spray pattern, this is acceptable from the tractor seat. With the larger nozzles installed the product dispensed is 4.4gpm through the spray bar. I did not test at 100psi and switching to the smaller nozzles in the spray bar yields 2.6gpm of product application @ 60psi. I do know from past experience quite a bit more product is applied through the spray bar with the larger nozzles and 100psi pressure as the tractor needs to move faster to avoid soaking. The spray bar has only been used for large open areas, and roadways; hence the larger nozzles. The smaller nozzles will be used for smaller gardens and such and not really to kill anything plant related. I have several friends with "food plots", (large gardens to me) I will be taking care of with this sprayer.

From this testing into a calibrated 10 gallon graduated burette, I'm thinking the 5gpm electric pump would work fine yielding approximately 3gpm @60psi and as Ray mentions, "a lot cheaper than another tractor".

Tractor has always been named "Hercules" and he now has a future with me again.

Thanks,


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2023 at 2:19pm
Stopped by the farm store this morning and picked up a 12VDC Remco 5gpm pump as shown above, a plastic "Tee" with a 3/4"X3/4"X3/4" pickoff point to attach to the spray wand pump inlet from the suction line of the roller pump, a 3/4"X1/2" reducer bushing and close nipple to connect to the hand wand pump inlet, and a 1/2"X3/8" hose barb to connect to the hand spray wand hose from the discharge side of the electric pump. This will eliminate the PTO need for hand application.

Still uncertain is whether I will need to incorporate a check valve into the suction side of the electric pump to keep the roller pump from cavitating or anything of the like. Need to test to ensure steady flow through the apparatus.

I have several "Crouse-Hinds", and "Cole-Hersee" brand environmentally sealed switches along with sealed relays with 12VDC coils so should be able to run and operate this setup quite easily and protected once I have a harness lined out.

More whether positive, or negative later.  
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