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Land lease problem

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Sandknob View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sandknob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Land lease problem
    Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 8:55pm
I have just started farming within the last few years, and at the same time growing my "operation".  After my grandmother (on my moms side) passed away is about the time I really got into it seriously.  She always had a friend of my grandfather (he passed away in 81) farm the ground and they were always good to her, but most of her kids did not care for the farmer.  Anyway I picked up the small patch she had at the end of last year and had a good crop of corn off of it this year.  Well I now have picked up the larger 20 acres across the road that the previous farmer had always farmed.  My parents (the executors) informed the previous tenants appx the last week of September that I would be farming it.  They in turn let my parents know that they had already purchased the seed, nh3, and fertilizer for the following year and they would decide how best to go about the change.  Well we hadn't heard anything for a couple weeks so I stopped and talked to him yesterday and he informed me that since they were not notified in time that they figured $2000 would be about right to make it right.  I was under the impression that unless the ground was going to be planted in wheat that the notification date was Nov 1. 
 
Now for some more info:
I work for fertilzer company A
They bought seed, fertilizer, and NH3 thru company B
Company A can custom apply NH3 which I was going to have done as I do not have a bar.
Company B does not offer that service
Company B has not put on fertilizer yet.
I also have a plate planter so I cannot plant just any seed.
 
What is everybodys opinion and what are our options.
Thanks
Adam
 
 
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Eldon (WA) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eldon (WA) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:04pm
B.S.....
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Sandknob View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sandknob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:06pm
Eldon ?????  Which part??
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Eldon (WA) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eldon (WA) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:09pm
That they had purchased seed and fertilizer before the end of September??....I believe I would have the first right of refusal anytime before the first half of the rent is paid...maybe it is different out your way....
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Sandknob View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sandknob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:11pm
I don't know how much difference it makes, but it is crop share (1/3 - 2/3) instead of cash rent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Osage_Orange Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:12pm
I think they are just trying to take advantage of you.  Anyone who purchases material, equipment, etc. for farming without having an agreement with the landowner is foolish (or use "poor word choice") and should not expect to have lifelong rights to farm a piece of land. Tell them it is an "unfortunate incident" but you plan to farm the land.  If they persist or threaten you, talk to a lawyer.

Edited by Osage_Orange - 24 Oct 2010 at 9:18pm
Why is there never time to do it right the first time, but always time to go back and fix it?
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Sandknob View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sandknob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:13pm
As I was talking to him he had the gull to ask me if this was just something my parents came up with or if the rest of the family even knew about it (which they have for months now and I have thier support on).
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Russ-neia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Russ-neia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:14pm
In Iowa notification of termination is Sept. 1.
The innovators offer what others will imitate.
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Sandknob View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sandknob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:16pm
I found Iowa's notification as Sept 1, but I can not seem to find Illinois.  I have always heard Nov 1, but that doesn't mean its the right date.
Adam
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Brad(WI) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brad(WI) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:17pm
Around me it would be refunded more than likely.  The fertilizer has shot up in price around here.  I booked mine around Oct 1st, and it has gone up quite a bit.  Unused seed is refunded in spring, so I don't know why they wouldn't in fall.  He's just being an a-hole.  How much notice does a person need, if he didn't have a written contract saying he had it next year it's not your fault.
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Larry in OK View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Larry in OK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:17pm
Time to spend a few bucks with a lawyer for a consultation before you have to spend a lot of bucks with a lawyer to defend a lawsuit.
Some people are like Slinkies. Not really good for much of anything but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveCinIN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:18pm
If I or my renter wants to change or cancel the rent contract, we would have to let the other know by Oct 1st. Was there a contract?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ScottinSWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:20pm
 If there is not a written contract then you went about it right by letting them know in plenty of time in advance.  I always thought Nov 1 was the date also.  I would say you owe them nothing.  If they insist on farming it next year, change the terms to a very generous cash rent agreement on your terms and see how bad they really want to farm it another year.
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Sandknob View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sandknob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:21pm
Larry,
That though crossed my mind earlier.  I planned on calling our lawyer tommorow just to see where we stood at (not planning any lawsuit, don't believe in them (at least for this), but that doesn't mean they don't). 
Brad,
I got that impression too.  Sometimes the guy can be real nice, othertimes lookout. 
Adam
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Sandknob View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sandknob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:25pm
As far as if there is a contract, I don't know on that.  My parents would know as mom has spent quite a bit of time going over grandmas papers and sorting things out with a lawyer after her passing (genreal items not neccesarily the land).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeO(CMO) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:26pm
It

Edited by JoeO(CMO) - 19 Apr 2011 at 4:45pm




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Sandknob View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sandknob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:28pm
Joe,
That also crossed my mind too.  If for some reason I decided to get out in the future, or was pushed out for other reasons (i hope not though).  I would have recommended that they be first to farm the ground, but not now.
Adam
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Sandknob View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sandknob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:29pm
By the way thanks for all the opinions and please keep them coming.
Adam
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Wil M (NEIA) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wil M (NEIA) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:30pm

You need to find out the land laws and rent laws in the state of Illinois.  In Iowa, it doesn't matter if it is a written contract or a verbal contract, you still have to give the tenant notice by the 1st of September if you do not want them to farm it the next year.  Then things like plow back, lime etc have to be worked out and a fair value assigned.  There is the possibility that he fertilized it last year for 2 crop years, that is done quite frequently around here in some rotations. 

"Yet there are soulless men whose hand and brain tear down what time will never give again." Anderson M Scruggs
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomNE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:39pm
  call your FSA office they will have your answer.   in NE, its sept 1 unless a written contract  specifies another date.    I had a large farmer spend a ton of money to break a contract that i had from a landowner that died.   i didn't even take a lawyer to court.  the judge threw it out.  told them they had to honor what was the normal practice even as far as bills paid for chem and fert.
AC from the start of my families farming career till the end!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ScottinSWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:55pm

   I have been on both sides of the situation through the years.  It is hard sometimes to give up a piece of land that you have farmed for a long time especially if it is close by home.   I lost over 500 acres one year in a sealed bid opening for cash rent.  I would hope losing 20 acres won't put these guys in bad shape.  Life goes on.  But, the bottom line is, if you don't own then nothing is guranteed forever.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave in il Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 10:23pm
Technically when the landlord dies the lease expires when the crop is harvested unless they were told otherwise. You would owe for the value of residual fertillizer and lime but unapplied fertillizer and seed should not be your responsibility and even if he prepaid for them he should be able to get a refund or credit from his suppliers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nathan (SD) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 11:27pm
SD is Sept 1 for verbal leases. Cancellations of verbal leases have to be in writing. No Cancellation, then lease automatically renews. Written leases go by whats written in the lease.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 11:36pm
$100/acre in pre-emptive investment?  really? in a 20-acre field?

20 acres... and how many does he already farm?  Does having an excess of 20 acres in seed ORDERS and other contracts really cause that big a dent in his economy of scale?

And he couldn't read the writing on the wall??

Sounds pretty fishy to me...

I'm not a farmer, and don't even play one on TV, but I'd say that if statute indicates you as giving notice AFTER the date, then consider another avenue, but if you're PRIOR the date, and have some solid documentation that proves you gave pre-statute notice, I'd be inclined to not even worry about it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nathan (SD) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 11:49pm
Honestly. 20 acres. Give him one more year so he can't do any badmouthing of your family. 20 acres of trouble now may cost you a hundreds of acres gig in the future. Letting them stay on now puts the ball back in their court. Gives people around the area a whole year to see how your old tenants handle the departure. If they are pricks I guarentee you others will take note. One guy around here turned off his straw chopper and dumped 30 ft of bean straw in windrows  on 1200 acres he was legally cancelled from. News like that spread around the whole county. He never has picked up any more rented land.
 You can build alot of goodwill points out of this. I think those will payoff more than the money off of 20 acres 1 year earlier.
 
Unless the date by law is Nov 1, then piss on him. If you missed a earlier date then back off.
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John (C-IL) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John (C-IL) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 8:03am
Adam, I'll call BS on this one. The notice date in Illinois is October 31. You still have time to get it in writing like you are supposed to do.
 
Here is a link for you:
 
 
As far as prepayed expenses that is BS also. Until the fertilizer or field operations are completed the landlord has no responsibility to the tenant. As others have suggested it may be worthwhile to contact an attorney. It may be a CYA moment but a couple hundred dollar expense now may save some headaches in the future. While you are at it I would suggest that there be a written lease between you and the family. You will need it to "participate"  in the government programs anyhow.


Edited by John (C-IL) - 25 Oct 2010 at 8:05am
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Sandknob View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sandknob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 10:03am
October 31st is the deadline date via the U of I extension office.  We were also told to send certified mail.  How does certified mail work when the fellow is not home during the day normally.
Adam
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clovis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 10:05am
Originally posted by Nathan (SD) Nathan (SD) wrote:

Honestly. 20 acres. Give him one more year so he can't do any badmouthing of your family. 20 acres of trouble now may cost you a hundreds of acres gig in the future. Letting them stay on now puts the ball back in their court. Gives people around the area a whole year to see how your old tenants handle the departure. If they are pricks I guarentee you others will take note. One guy around here turned off his straw chopper and dumped 30 ft of bean straw in windrows  on 1200 acres he was legally cancelled from. News like that spread around the whole county. He never has picked up any more rented land.
 You can build alot of goodwill points out of this. I think those will payoff more than the money off of 20 acres 1 year earlier. 

I agree. 

This should be a tough one to pass up, but I'd tend to be a gentleman in this situation and pass on it for this year. He has a year notification that you are taking over the lease in the fall of 2011. 

I kind of see both sides of this story.

I once had a customer that wanted to cancel their order with me to go with another supplier....but I had their order on the press at the time of notification. I understand that they wanted to buy from their daughter in law, but come on, I had $1300 laid into their job when they called to cancel. I am thankful they took the job because I didn't have $1300 to lose at the time.  

Sand, you posted a month ago that you might be able to pick up 50 to 70 acres (?). Can you grab some of those acres, and let this guy have it for next season? This avoids any big problems with lawyers, and you look good to everyone involved.     

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote morton(pa) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 10:05am
They drop a card in their mailbox that says "come to the post office, you must sign for this". (sort of, basicly thats what it says in a nutshell). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clovis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 10:09am
Originally posted by Sandknob Sandknob wrote:

October 31st is the deadline date via the U of I extension office.  We were also told to send certified mail.  How does certified mail work when the fellow is not home during the day normally.
Adam

The postal carrier would leave a slip in the mailbox, and the recipient will have to drive to the post office to pick up the letter and sign for it.


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