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Coke-in-MN 
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 Posted: 04 May 2022 at 3:42pm |
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On my tracks - I welded on rebar - 2 pieces to each pad - been running that on my HD5G for years . On my H4 I did the same - and on the D6 just 1 piece onto grouser
used 6/8 rebar and welded it on both sides using 7024 drag rod at higher amps
My H4 also used a quick attach backhoe but I ended up breaking 3 rear axles over years as hoe put full weight onto sprocket bearings .
Still have the AC 615 hoe attachment - as cylinders are same as on my AC715D TLB machine . Clearing some land a few years back found the 715 would push more than the HD4 would in speed and power .
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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Vetter
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Posted: 04 May 2022 at 4:47pm |
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My plan was to find a small backhoe, possibly from a skid loader and fabricate it to fit with the same quick detach that's currently on the dozer. I see them at the auction quite often.
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Vetter
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Posted: 06 May 2022 at 2:53pm |
I was able to remove a link on each side, and get the LH track going in the proper direction while I had it apart. The pic shows the RH side adjusted to the 1 1/2" sag per the maintenance manual, while the LH hasn't been adjusted yet. I feel much better now that the tensioners are threaded into the yokes, and the whole idler assembly tracks better. I can start putting some of the bolts back in the shims that were removed to tighten it up more. I will only be using this for light duty such as driveway grading, until hopefully I can find replacement tracks and sprockets. At least now I can run the machine and get the feel of everything and start cleaning it up with some fresh paint. 
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gemdozer
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Posted: 06 May 2022 at 3:07pm |
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The left side adjustement is oké but the right need more adjustement.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 06 May 2022 at 4:23pm |
or the other way around....RT/LT.... LOOKS GREAT !! GOOD JOB.... Lets hope the chain FITS the sprockets good enough that it doesn't grab and pop !!
Edited by steve(ill) - 06 May 2022 at 4:25pm
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 06 May 2022 at 4:27pm |
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Wha-cha got in the way of a press ? How tight were the pins ? Pull together with a comealong or winch ?
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Vetter
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Posted: 06 May 2022 at 4:41pm |
 steve(ill) wrote:
Wha-cha got in the way of a press ? How tight were the pins ? Pull together with a comealong or winch ? |
I used a old ball joint press I've had for about 30 years, it fit perfectly. The pins were very tight, I found if I tightened up the press as much as I could, then hit it with a hammer the pins moved, did this a couple of times and they came out. I used my tractor to pull the track when I removed it, and a comealong to tighten the tracks together.
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Vetter
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Posted: 06 May 2022 at 4:43pm |
A pic of the tractor helping out.
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Codger
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Posted: 06 May 2022 at 4:59pm |
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You done well and I too am glad you got it accomplished. I've used my old OTC ball joint press for the task on a small IH dozer years ago but wasn't as fortunate as you. I had to purchase a forcing screw once done as it was bent pretty fair from the sledgehammer blows it endured. It got the job done however.
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Vetter
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Posted: 06 May 2022 at 5:12pm |
Codger wrote:
You done well and I too am glad you got it accomplished. I've used my old OTC ball joint press for the task on a small IH dozer years ago but wasn't as fortunate as you. I had to purchase a forcing screw once done as it was bent pretty fair from the sledgehammer blows it endured. It got the job done however. |
Thanks! The threads on my ball joint press are almost done, I will have to be doing the same soon.
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Codger
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Posted: 07 May 2022 at 6:35am |
If your machine turns out to be reliable and purpose serving for you there is the chinese option out there for undercarriage parts. I have an 11B dozer myself and spent about an hour and a half exchanging emails with a gent in China via "Alibaba" who was very fluent in english and versed in undercarriage parts. Long and short of the story is a mated pin and bushing set was $49.00 each with a minimum of 100 each for my tractor. These I was told were quality steel hardened to 45C on the Rockwell scale which is the same as originals. I was assured they would serve as the originals did. Truth? I don't know of course as no direct experience. As mentioned in earlier postings the sprockets and chains are easily welded up for remachining to proper dimensions and these seem to hold up pretty fair if the correct filler material is used. Myself and now deceased uncle have done many in the past. It is the same with rollers, and idlers too. Most anything can be rebuilt, or built up and remachined true, but finding someone to do the work cost effective.....
There are still several H, and HD 3, 4 series out there needing new pins and bushings and if the participants would come together and share an order placement, great savings could be spread amongst the masses. Sad to say you'd be hard pressed to find an american machine shop to make p&b sets for the price.
Your track pads only seem to be worn down near smooth to the bolt heads. 7024 rod is a great filler to use for bonding "grouser" bars to the existing pads but it is a horizontal and flat only filler rod as has a very "fluid" puddle. Great rod for platform decking as instance. 1/2" strip about 1-1/4" tall/wide welded on both sides to the pads would really dig well and not fold over very easy.
Edited by Codger - 07 May 2022 at 8:17am
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Coke-in-MN
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Posted: 07 May 2022 at 11:04am |
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I welded the rebar to the pads - while on the machine - I clamped bar to pad at point it was on pad on front idler - another bar to track pad at rear sprocket - then welded ONE SIDE of bar - moved track and attached another 2 bars / welded and moved track
This way rod and pad allowed horizontal weld to fill easily and chip easily .
Actually 4 or 5 bars could be attached at each end of machine on each turn (not just 1 bar at each end)
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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Codger
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Posted: 08 May 2022 at 1:20am |
You did it the same way I would have; on the machine and either perfectly 90 degrees. or slightly less to allow a slight "vee" shape for the weld puddle. I would have chosen the same way clamping on both ends of the machine also to save time. 5/32 rod at about 155-165 amps DC+ will lay it right in there with absolutely no concerns with edge wetting. Good rod for this purpose if only have an AC machine also, but the duty cycle will kick out if an inexpensive buzz box type. I've always used my Hobart engine drive welder which is DC only.
I like Lincoln 7018 Excalibur rod better myself and still use it quite a bit. Seems to be just as strong and much easier to control as it's an all position rod where 7024 is not.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 08 May 2022 at 9:23am |
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i have never welded up track shoes... But i use 7018 rod on DC exclusively for the past 40 years... Works great on everything.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Codger
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Posted: 08 May 2022 at 9:55am |
I never really knew what track chains were made from as far as carbon content but I used a lot of 9018, and 11018 rod to weld them up using stringer beads. McKay brand was the favored choice later absorbed by Hobart Bros. One stringer down the center of each link, then one on each side of the center bead, then one on the other side which would cover, or cap the link. I tended to use 5/32, or 3/16 diameter filler dependent upon link width and alternated side to side with the beads. Tracks were then sent to another party and punched apart. Uncle then would get them back and had a jig on his grinder and could do two links at a time profile grinding them back into shape. They then went back to that party for putting back together.
I never really seen them again unless a local job.
C1045 strip welded to track shoes and capped with either Stoody 31, or 35 hard facing wears pretty well in abrasive conditions which I would recommend the original poster does with his machine. The choice of 7024 rod and patience play handsomely together in this type work. 7024 in the horizontal position when joining dissimilar thickness baseplates in "tee" joint configuration is great as the edge wetting ensures penetration into the thicker material without burning through the thinner, (within reason).
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Daelric
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Posted: 04 May 2023 at 8:18am |
Codger wrote:
I have an 11B dozer myself and spent about an hour and a half exchanging emails with a gent in China via "Alibaba" who was very fluent in english and versed in undercarriage parts. Long and short of the story is a mated pin and bushing set was $49.00 each with a minimum of 100 each for my tractor. These I was told were quality steel hardened to 45C on the Rockwell scale which is the same as originals. I was assured they would serve as the originals did. Truth? I don't know of course as no direct experience. As mentioned in earlier postings the sprockets and chains are easily welded up for remachining to proper dimensions and these seem to hold up pretty fair if the correct filler material is used. Myself and now deceased uncle have done many in the past. It is the same with rollers, and idlers too. Most anything can be rebuilt, or built up and remachined true, but finding someone to do the work cost effective.....
There are still several H, and HD 3, 4 series out there needing new pins and bushings and if the participants would come together and share an order placement, great savings could be spread amongst the masses. Sad to say you'd be hard pressed to find an american machine shop to make p&b sets for the price.
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After discovering that the bushings on my HD4 track are worn right through to the pin in some places, I am VERY interested in any info you have on this Alibaba/Chinese source.
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Codger
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Posted: 04 May 2023 at 6:21pm |
I have a lot of time, and some money vested in setting up the ability to order from China so going to be vague in my response(s). I will say a trial set is installed on an older HD-7 at my uncles place and the tractor currently has about 250 operating hours on the set. I'm told there is no noticeable wear to anything that was either built up, or replaced at this time and the dozer is used routinely. The P&B sets came from China. I had a friend make the master P&B sets. The "masters" were almost twice the cost of the China produced sets per each.
Price to end user? About $87.50 each after customs entry fees and taxes delivered to my shop on a P&B set matching specifications. There is a nine to 12 week turnaround to reception timeframe also with a 200pc minimum order. It would take a few people going in together as cost prohibitive for a single user.
It can be done albeit expensive. Keep in mind the cost of sublet repair labor also if you cannot do the work yourself. Even on a small crawler, it is a lot of work to replace the undercarriage; and many unknowns till broken into.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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Codger
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Posted: 05 May 2023 at 7:34am |
Going to add to this just a bit. Once I have both this tractor, and another currently in testing evaluated fully, I will offer the service to rebuild tracks. I have a mobile Rogers track press with most any adapter set needed and can push any pins & bushings up to and including HD21 size tractors. My future plans are to travel and do some on site work in the warmer months in different parts of the country. Pricing will be "reasonable" for on site service.
I am working an angle to rebuild chains, rollers, idlers and sprockets but not complete on those yet. My uncle, (who we did this together) has passed on so I'm looking to replace his service(s). There are a couple of interested parties in negotiations currently.
Hopefully, in the near future this can all be brought to fruition and benefits can be had by those struggling to locate parts. I'm not really new at this kind of work so once acceptable sublet services are in place, it will be a go.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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Codger
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Posted: 08 May 2023 at 8:08am |
Spoke with uncle yesterday and asked him to measure wear on the P&B's of the HD-7. There appears to be about .009" wear on the left track and about .0075" wear on the right track measured over four pins reference points I'd indented into the chains for trammel points install. This measurement is easily taken after the areas are cleaned and tracks tensioned properly.
There are 267 hours on the P&B's since install for reference. The dozer is not used hard but routinely to clean the feed lots. I don't know if the P&B's will wear faster once more clearances open from usage or not, but would expect so as foreign abrasive matter will inevitably find it's way in and exacerbate wear.
I've asked to be updated at 250 hour intervals to keep a log of the wear as it progresses. So far I'm quite impressed with what I've seen.
I do have the feeling that if a guy is willing to spend the money we can rebuild the tracks, or undercarriage and far extend the service life of the machine. Just because parts are obsolete doesn't mean the machine has to be put to scrap.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 08 May 2023 at 9:17am |
9 thousandths wear in 250 hours is GREAT !!.. Lots of tractors running with 1/8 inch wear or better... Have seen 1/4 inch on BIG tractors..... your 3000 hours from 1/8 inch wear !! 
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Codger
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Posted: 08 May 2023 at 9:31am |
Yes, and thanks. I have not measured this myself but showed my relation how to use the trammel gauge I left for the purpose. My target was a 4K hours undercarriage wear rating on this size tractor which is a bit heavy for the home hobby machine.
I'm kind of hoping the service can sell itself in the near future as the pricing can come down a bit with more quantity ordered in the P&B's but will require pre orders to qualify. Ultimately this won't be limited to just A-C machines as one in test now is an IHC tractor.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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Daelric
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Posted: 08 May 2023 at 9:32am |
That's great news Codger, thanks for doing all the work you've done towards this! I'll bet it hasn't been easy. The only downside is that expense. I'm just assuming here, but I would imagine that there's no point in only replacing the odd P&B set. Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't the entire track be replaced once it gets to the point that it can no longer be used due to wear through the bushings? With this in mind, I counted it up and my tracks have 35 P&B sets per chain, for a total of 70 needed for 2 track chains. At your price quote that's $6125 USD  I'm in Canada so that works out to $8200 CAD. Once shipping is factored in to get them to me we're into a price range where it's more than I paid for the machine to begin with! I think at this point I'm just going to have to run the machine hoping that there are still some years left in those chains, because at this rate I don't see myself replacing the chains until they actually break on me.
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Codger
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Posted: 08 May 2023 at 4:24pm |
Undercarriage parts/costs have put many an otherwise serviceable tractor down over the years. Nothing new there and will continue to worsen as time marches on and parts are NLA.
You are correct in assumption there is no option to selectively replace P&B's as they must all be replaced together. Worn out P&B's such as you have does not mean the chain links are bad so these need measured up also. Drive sprockets at a minimum will require rebuild, or replacement as if they have been driving chains worn through the bushing they are extremely out of tolerance. If you put new parts against them the teeth will either break out, or at a minimum accelerated wear of your P&B's will occur. Sometimes doing a task correct is the only option IMO. Bushings worn through are a dead giveaway the tractor has had limited care and the cost will be great to rectify.
Part of what drives a price is a requirement or standards to be met. My specification of a 4K lifespan on a 15K tractor weight is a contributing factor for certain. I'm certain they would build P&B's that would only run 1K hours at reduced cost if that was the request and minimum quantities were satisfied for the order. That however is not a market I wish to participate within.
A chain doesn't usually break but rather won't stay on the machine. A few times reinstalling a thrown track usually changes a guys mind on the direction to take.
Thanks,
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 08 May 2023 at 4:34pm |
you can not compare the original cost of the machine to what it takes to repair // replace a set of tracks.... I have bought several small farm tractors (allis B) for $500. or so... Might spend 2-3 X that much to get them running and repaired to last another 50 years..
You spend $10 K on a dozer and you might increased the value $15K.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Codger
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Posted: 08 May 2023 at 9:10pm |
Yes Steve, it is a common misconception the machine can be purchased cheap and repaired inexpensively to have the "Golden Goose" once done. However with crawlers few realize the amount of specialty tools and expertise required to do the most simple of tasks on the machine. So many variations of doing the same thing from type to type. Finding a shop these days that does track work is becoming increasingly difficult as much of the undercarriage anymore is a throwaway item once run out, and good used stocks thinning coupled with nothing available in the aftermarket or OEM levels. Many of the existing parts can be built up and machined true, but even that has limitations. It takes a special skill set to maintain aged construction equipment and most won't bear the expense of doing so; hence the reason a crawler sells for little dollars to potential value.
CTL's have mostly eliminated the small crawler in personal, and farm usage around here. Lot of versatility in a single machine. However those are pushing $75K for something with the capacity of a small metal tracked dozer, so the old crawler still has a viable purpose if used correctly. Couple the acquistion expense with the expense of repairs to their undercarriage, and it's quite a shock to many. Several around here have discovered the value in good tracks vs more inexpensive tracks in those too.
I'm only putting this out there to hopefully get people to thinking there are options available. I know where several crawlers are setting in different places unused because they won't keep a track on any longer. Staying with A-C one guy has an older HD-19, and two HD-21's that are mine for the hauling off if wanted but they all need extensive track work. The PS transmission in one of the 21's needs resealed but does work I'm told; the other has no history as was purchased for parts spares. A couple of IH tractors and certainly some Cat units. Caterpillar is the favored brand of many, but I'm from Springfield and loyal to the A-C brand in crawlers and wheel loaders. Got my feet wet many years ago, and it's been carried along the way through the years.
Once I get all the sublet labor established I plan to start purchasing up worn tracks for rebuild stocks. I'd like to offer tracks on a rebuilt exchange service eventually. This would lessen down time. Don't really have a clue of what will be desired but if the sublet shops are willing to work with me, I'll get it figured out.
I do plan to make attempt to have the P&B's machined in this country but that's not been possible from a cost perspective at this writing. As mentioned earlier, the master sets I had made meeting the criteria were almost double the cost of the chinese units. The search however will go on.
Thanks,
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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Mike K
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Posted: 08 May 2023 at 9:45pm |
Sprokets call J&H Welding Inc 906 353 6119 Mike is a nice guy to deal with
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Daelric
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Posted: 09 May 2023 at 7:58am |
To be fair, my intent with the comment about original cost to buy the machine wasn't meant to be a direct comparison to that cost... I am well aware that the cost to repair/refurbish machinery is very often more than the cost to buy the used piece of equipment to begin with. I also wasn't looking for any "Golden Goose" or bought the machine with inflated expectations. I live in a very isolated part of Canada where equipment is sparse and not easy to find, and this machine was literally the only tracked backhoe/loader I've ever seen come available up here in the past 20 years, so I took advantage of the opportunity. Also, If my financial situation was better I would've bought a newer machine of some sort. The comment I made regarding cost was more a comment about my personal financial situation than anything else. While I wish I did, I simply do not have the finances to drop another $10k on this machine in the near future. As for reinstalling a thrown track, this is definitely an issue I am facing It doesn't happen all the time, usually only when I'm having to make a tight turn using the brake along with the steering lever, but I've definitely had to put back on a thrown track probably about 5 or 6 times now in the 1.5 years I've owned the machine.
Edited by Daelric - 09 May 2023 at 8:01am
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Codger
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Posted: 09 May 2023 at 1:22pm |
Hi and thanks for responding; most don't. No insults or anything of the like meant by me as I'm just relaying it is possible to keep a machine operational with $$$ and the willingness to make it happen. Hard to find a good tracked backhoe these days as the combination hasn't been popular in many years. Hydraulic excavators long took that usage away. Kind of like toothed bucket trackloaders used to dig a lot of basements but not so much any longer.
I'm not trying to "drum up" business on this site at all. I will approach that when the time comes via a website and advertising aimed directly at that market. This is just the open and free flow exchange of information with track work being a single segment. I'm not any kind of close to going into production and am in the prototyping stage(s). It is a niche market I don't see anyone else chasing at this time but there is a lot of equipment that could be well served if someone took the lead. I hope it will take off, but who knows.....
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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Daelric
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Posted: 11 May 2023 at 11:21am |
Codger wrote:
it is possible to keep a machine operational with $$$ and the willingness to make it happen. |
The willingness is here 100%... unfortunately it's just the $$$ aspect for me in my current situation. If I didn't have an upcoming wedding and a major home renovation on the docket for the next year or two, it might be a different story!
Codger wrote:
Hard to find a good tracked backhoe these days as the combination hasn't been popular in many years. |
This is ultimately why I jumped at the chance to buy this machine when I did. You don't see equipment like this often. I live in an area in northwestern British Columbia on 80 acres with a lot of thick bush and trees, but the ground in a large amount of the acreage is soft and wet. This HD4 with its FEL and Backhoe attachment is the absolute PERFECT machine for the kind of work I need it for and the terrain I use it on. I absolutely love this machine, and feel like she's given me way more than my money's worth out of her in just the year and a half I've had her. If I had the cash to spare, I wouldn't think twice about putting my name down for a set of 70 pins and bushings. Hopefully in a couple years I'll be in a better position in that way.
Codger wrote:
I'm not trying to "drum up" business on this site at all. I will approach that when the time comes via a website and advertising aimed directly at that market.
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Sounds great! Drum away! I hope when the time comes that I have the $$$ you've figured out all the kinks and are in full production... I'll certainly be keeping tabs on this forum to see your updates on that front! In closing, here are some photos of my machine. I think the sprockets appear to be in decent shape still, but that's just based on pics I've seen of other machines where the sprocket teeth look like they've been worn down to the point of looking like sharks teeth.    |
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Jgranat
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Posted: 11 May 2023 at 5:13pm |
Les Kerf wrote:
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For the life of me I can't see how removing a track link can change the contact points on the sprocket, not saying it doesn't happen, I just can't see how? I understand the wear has changed things, but that has already been done and I look at it as the sprocket and links have wore together. Like removing a link from a motorcycle chain, it shortens it, but doesn't change its geometry? I know that's is over simplifying it. I'll look into flipping the bushings and pins, but I'm not sure that would be enough to remove enough slop for the tensioners to thread into the yokes properly. [/QUOTE] Well, yes and no. Removing a link allows you to take all of the slack out of the chain; the chain has already 'stretched' due to wear, and if you pull it tight like a fiddle string then each link is now slightly longer, thus preventing the bushings from settling down into the sprocket. The contact point is now higher up on the sprocket tooth and above the previous wear area. Since the same amount of force is now concentrated in a smaller area, this area will wear more rapidly than before, hastening its demise. If the pins and bushings have never been turned, it will indeed help to have this done because the bushing area would then fill the sprocket more fully, plus the pin and bushing contact area is at a different spot inside. The chain will appear to be shorter. If the pins and bushings have already been turned, then your options are now: A) Run it as-is and hope the track stays on B) Find a better set of tracks (good luck with that!) C) Park it and use it for a yard ornament D) Scrap the machine E) Remove a link and get what little life remains out of your machine If you do remove a link, run the tracks as loose as you can get away with [/QUOTE] A stretched track washes out your sprocket because it lengthens your pitch. Pitch has nothing to do with the number of links you are running.
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