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cornbinder 
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Location: jeromesville,oh
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 Topic: IRS. dippin tanks
Posted: 03 Oct 2012 at 10:03am |
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Had a friend of mine that owns a large landscape company,call me this morning tell me that someone from the IRS. Come to his shop this morning and took fuel samples out of his diesel pick-ups. Evidently the inspector said he was going to local businesses checking for "dyed fuel" don't they have anything better to do?? Checking for pick up trucks with dyed fuel.WOW
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cornbinder
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Posted: 03 Oct 2012 at 10:05am |
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Oops sorry probly posted under wrong topic.
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Bolivar Boy
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Posted: 03 Oct 2012 at 10:42am |
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willing to bet they show up at the sale barn in Kidron and Mt. Hope?....last time the feds were around here they had a little old lady wearing a scarf carrying what looked like a picnic basket trolling around the sale barn grounds. she had her basket full of test tubes and a clear rubber hosed syphon tool that she pulled samples with instead of sandwiches and woopie pies. unless you could prove that your diesel engine had a bad or leaking oil pump causing the fuel discoloration, crossover, she would award you with the IRS certificate of non achievement and then advise you that someone from the head shed, speaking with a German Accent, would personally make contact with you in the very near future concerning the disposition of this very grave incident.........
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Tracy Martin TN
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Posted: 03 Oct 2012 at 10:56am |
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Just a thought. How much and how long would red fuel show up in a fuel system test like that? Sounds like a way for angry employees or competitors to cause trouble. JMHO Tracy Martin
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Michael Crowe
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Posted: 03 Oct 2012 at 11:00am |
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If you ever get caught with red fuel in a road truck, be very careful. I had a friend 10 years ago that the IRS just came upon his private property and dipped the tanks; some trucks that were not his were red, and they tried unsuccessfully to penalize not only the truck fuel tanks, but also an 8000 gallon bulk tank. AT $10 per gallon, that was over $88,000 he had to pay out. The IRS eventually gave it back with interest but it was 3 years later. If you get caught, get a lawyer that knows this area of the law. Just because the IRS says something does not make it so. I know the above story first hand.
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Matt MN
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Posted: 03 Oct 2012 at 11:15am |
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At least here in Minnesota it is a very common practice to see them dipping tanks, I have had it happen one time going to an auction. I have never heard of it that they come to you house and dip the tanks, Mainly just on the road.
The dye does eventually leave your tank but it takes a long time for it to get washed out.
I have a friend that is an over the road truck driver and he was in Georgia one time and the truck stop was sold out of the road fuel, but was selling the off-road fuel to the truckers with the applied tax and then giving them a tax declaration paperwork stating that the approiate taxes were paid for that fuel. He said he has to carry that for 2 years just in case of problems.
I have also been told that this is a huge concern now lately since all these people are making there own bio-diesel themselves and avoiding paying the road tax on them, About a year ago there was a Bus garage that was making all there own diesel them selves from vegetable oil and the state hit them with a huge fine for the tax evasion.
Edited by Matt MN - 03 Oct 2012 at 11:22am
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HARVESTMOONPULLER
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Joined: 12 Oct 2009
Location: NW Ohio
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Posted: 03 Oct 2012 at 8:58pm |
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Suppose a guy just put a locking fuel cap on his truck and just so happens doesnt have the key. I know they do it ive seen them do it but it seems to me its unjust to just think they can dip a tank just because they can. An LEO cant search a vehicle without probable cause. Owning a diesel engine isnt probable cause that its burning off road fuel. How do they and why do we let them get away with it?
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jb from md
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Location: Keymar MD
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Posted: 03 Oct 2012 at 9:24pm |
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i assume the locking cap will be like a commercial truck and the scale house. they can use the portables or run you to a scale . if they want in they will find a way..its a wonder they havent got on the farmers that use farm equipment on the road from farm to farm. if its on the road its not supposed to have red fuel. they were checking the trucks that were coming into the livestock auction in westminster a while ago...Jb
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Stan R
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Posted: 03 Oct 2012 at 9:33pm |
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If the truck is on YOUR property and has red dye fuel in it, is it illegal? I ask as it is not on a public way and I would challenge the IRS that it is not being used on public road.
No doubt your "caught" if you are tested on a public road with red dye fuel.
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Dave in il
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Posted: 03 Oct 2012 at 9:38pm |
A few years ago here in IL they were dipping tanks at grain elevators and farm auctions I guess the "probable cause" is that's where farmers hang out and everybody knows we're just a bunch of liars and theives. LOL
In all fairness they were also hitting truck stops and weigh stations.
The same fall one of the guys working for me decided to fill up the grain trucks for me. Don't know which bothered me more, the Ag diesel in the big truck knowing they'd been dipping tanks or the 5 gallon or so of diesel in the gas powered truck before somebody noticed what he was doing.
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HARVESTMOONPULLER
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Posted: 03 Oct 2012 at 9:47pm |
I was curious as ive never though to do any research on this. Heres just a bit of what i found pertaining this topic.
4.24.13.7 (11-09-2007)
Authority to Inspect
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Through Section 4083(d) and Treas. Regs. Section 48.4083-1, FCOs are authorized to conduct warrantless searches.
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The FCO must present his/her credentials and provide Notice 916 (Eng/Sp) to each taxpayer prior to an inspection to explain the authority to inspect
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Publication 1 is provided to every taxpayer except at designated inspection sites
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This authority may be divided into three broad categories:
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Designated inspection site inspections
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Pervasively regulated industry inspections, where fuel is stored or may be stored, and
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Other inspections where consent is granted by the taxpayer
4.24.13.7.1 (07-20-2009)
Designated Inspection Sites
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Designated inspection sites are any State highway inspection station, weigh station, agricultural inspection station, mobile station, or other location designated by the Commissioner to be used as a fuel inspection site. A designated inspection site will be identified as a fuel inspection site. By IRS policy, these sites will be designated with a free standing and/or magnetized vehicle sign displaying "IRS DYED FUEL INSPECTION SITE"
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A designated inspection site is typically controlled by one agency and has vehicles from multiple entities moving through
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If the site is a State highway inspection station, weigh station, agricultural inspection station, mobile station, or located at any point on a highway, the FCO must coordinate the inspection activity with local or state law enforcement. The law enforcement personnel must be present and control the site.
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"Other locations designated by the Commissioner to be used as inspection sites" include, but are not limited to, construction sites, parks, rest areas, or any point on a public highway.
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Nathan (SD)
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Posted: 04 Oct 2012 at 12:34am |
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Other inspections where consent is granted by the taxpayer.
This one is for private property. Most people consent cuz the guy asks. They think they have to say yes.
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cornbinder
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Posted: 04 Oct 2012 at 5:55am |
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Policy&procedure for inspection on private property?
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allisrutledge
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Posted: 04 Oct 2012 at 8:25am |
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If you don't give consent in TN they will return with a warrent and a local officer. About 15 years ago I was checked . If the truck being checked is regestered and has current tags on it ( Don't matter if it is off road or not), IT IS subject to fines. When I was checked the fine was 1000.00 + 2.00 a Gal for the fuel ii the tank . If they were denied and had to return with a warrent the fine doubled. 2000.00 and 4.00 . I have a copy of the paper and her irs buisness card .Might be wrong topic but everyone needs to know . Scott -Remember they must present their credentials prior to any inspections
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Coke-in-MN
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Posted: 04 Oct 2012 at 12:01pm |
Couple years back had MN state patrol officer stop and ask to check the tanks on trucks setting by shop. He pulled samples and OK as no die. We got talking and i asked him about running ATF added to Diesel , he said be real cautious as the red die in ATF could be a positive reading and be subject to the TAX rules. Also asked about running used motor oil into diesel , he mentioned you can do that but have to keep track of gallons you add and submit the road tax on that to the IRS / State. We also talked about the vegetable diesel making and again said you need to keep track and submit the tax . When we talked a little more i said i only use road tax fuel in my equipment also just to avoid any problems as I just file the full cost of fuel used as a business expense and do not bother with off road fuel / he mentioned this is the easiest way to avoid problems of mix-up - wrong fuel in the wrong vehicle or oops.
As little as 1 gallon can show up in 100 gallons on their test. If any trace is found they will pull sample and have it analyzed in a lab to confirm your guilt. Then prove them WRONG becomes your problem.
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randy
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Posted: 04 Oct 2012 at 12:16pm |
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Did the bus garage use a dye, or how did they decide it was no tax fuel?
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JohnCinMd
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Posted: 04 Oct 2012 at 12:25pm |
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Are they just grabbing at straws or is this a big problem?
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Coke-in-MN
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Posted: 04 Oct 2012 at 12:39pm |
When I had a State audit for fuel use they estimated the mileage to their proposed audit and then said this is what they figured i should owe. I had to prove where i bought fuel, how many miles i had driven , where the fuel was used in what equipment and which was road use and off road use. That is when I figured instead of filing a form for getting off road tax back or claiming anything about fuel is to just make it a business expense as it is and write it off. On a bus they have to keep track of mileage on daily trip reports so take miles driven, divide it by MPG of bus and take fuel bought against MPG and miles logged , YOU OWE taxes on difference. PAY UP.
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Life lesson: If you’re being chased by a lion, you’re on a horse, to the left of you is a giraffe and on the right is a unicorn, what do you do? You stop drinking and get off the carousel.
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DonDittmar
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Posted: 04 Oct 2012 at 12:43pm |
Like allisrutledge said, if it has tags and insurance on it, they will assume you will be running it on the road and therefore will need to have hiway fuel in it.
Being on the farm does not give you the right to run no tax fuel in everything you own, just offroad equipment.
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Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity"
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Brian Jasper co. Ia
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Posted: 04 Oct 2012 at 12:48pm |
Here is what I know about red fuel in Iowa. I have a cousin who runs a repair shop in Humeston. A local farmer pulled in with a truck to get it repaired. A DOT officer pulled in moments later and announced he was going to inspect that truck. Rae point blank told the DOT officer he was not going to inspect anything or otherwise harass his customers and to get off his property. If he wanted to inspect that truck he needed to catch him on the road somewhere. With that the officer left. In Iowa, its the DOT that will check your fuel for dye. My neighbor across the road from me when I lived near Leon got stopped for a roadside inspection while hauling corn to the elevator. Red fuel in the truck. It cost him road use tax on 500 gal (capacity of fuel tanks on truck) and $10K fine. The DOT showed up at his farm the next day with a warrant to check all other diesel powered road vehicles which were 2 pickups and a straight truck. All of them had red fuel. He got fined $10K each and road use tax for the capacity of all vehicle fuel tanks. He tried to get out of the fine on one of the pickups because he never actually drove it off the farm. They told him no since it had current registration. You'd have to burn alot of red fuel on the road to cover over $40K. Then there's the risk of being criminally prosecuted for tax evasion...
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DonDittmar
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Posted: 04 Oct 2012 at 12:49pm |
I dont know how it is in other parts of the country, but here where I am from ALOT of people a think that "farm" plates gives you the right to not obey the laws, such as the fuel law as well as working trailer lights and secure loads
Some of these people are finding out a very expensive lesson that once you roll out onto the highway, your farm is now a commercial business and you are subject to the same rules as any other commercial driver
Edited by DonDittmar - 04 Oct 2012 at 12:51pm
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Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity"
1968 D15D,1962 D19D
Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start
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JohnCO
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Posted: 04 Oct 2012 at 1:23pm |
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I've never heard of those things happening in Colorado. I did hear of a DOT/State Patrol check point coming out of the San Louis valley. Stopping all the trucks for safety inspections and dyed fuel. Stopped one family in a Ford dually with camper plates. Stuck a hose in his tank, the guy said, "You won't find dyed fuel in the tank", "We have to check, sir." "Why not look at the side of the fender where it says V10?" "Oh, Sorry about that sir, you may proceed."
Had to go through a dot stop with my 63 Chevy 80 truck once twenty years ago. One young guy crawled under and saw something on the brake hose and said it was frayed, one of the more experienced guys looked and said, "No, just cow sh$t." The rest of the crew was laughing so hard the head guy told me to "Move on."
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Skyhighballoon(MO)
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Posted: 04 Oct 2012 at 1:58pm |
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I have all gas tractors & vehicles so I have to pay the tax on every gallon up front at the pump then keep separate receipts for the farm use stuff and file for the refund of the off-road agriculture use on my tax return. No inspections for me! Mike
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Calvin Schmidt
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Posted: 04 Oct 2012 at 3:55pm |
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Its much the same here in Ontario. I got pulled over this summer with my highway tractor and stepdeck trailer. I run on farm plates and I guess that looked like a hay hauler. He asked to dip the tanks which I happily agreed to let him do because there was clear fuel in the tanks. He couldn't get his probe into the tanks because the previous owner had spec'ed tanks with screens in the filler necks. I'm sure he could tell that I wasn't hiding anything so he sent me on my way. Same rules here. Clear only in licenced road vehicles. I have bulk clear and dyed tanks on the farm.
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DiyDave
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Posted: 04 Oct 2012 at 5:23pm |
 JohnCO wrote:
I've never heard of those things happening in Colorado. I did hear of a DOT/State Patrol check point coming out of the San Louis valley. Stopping all the trucks for safety inspections and dyed fuel. Stopped one family in a Ford dually with camper plates. Stuck a hose in his tank, the guy said, "You won't find dyed fuel in the tank", "We have to check, sir." "Why not look at the side of the fender where it says V10?" "Oh, Sorry about that sir, you may proceed."
Had to go through a dot stop with my 63 Chevy 80 truck once twenty years ago. One young guy crawled under and saw something on the brake hose and said it was frayed, one of the more experienced guys looked and said, "No, just cow sh$t." The rest of the crew was laughing so hard the head guy told me to "Move on."
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I have a '94 dodge with the V-10, I have to take it through emissions, every other year. I wait till it rains, do a couple laps of donuts, through the cow yard, and proceed to the emissions test! Only thing that has ever failed, was this year they said I had a bad gas cap. I will put the new on on, to verify that I bought it, then take the new one off, and store it in the glove box till the next test!
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