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rieg 
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Joined: 17 Sep 2009
Location: swoh
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 Topic: How can Injection Pump leak fuel into engine?
Posted: 17 Oct 2022 at 7:53pm |
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I was getting fuel into engine oil, had it tested to confirm, sent it off, company went out of business but charged us for repair. I am still getting fuel into engine oil, replaced primer pump 500.00 bucks still having the same problem. It gains about two quarts in fifty hours. I have been changing the oil every fifty hours. How can this be happening?? The pump is a Neppendenzo 3800 hours total 200 on supposed rebuild. How can this fuel get through to the oil? The tractor runs and starts great. Any suggestions or help would be appreciated.
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rieg
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calico190xt68
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Joined: 12 Jan 2017
Location: Frankton, IN
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Posted: 17 Oct 2022 at 8:01pm |
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Not sure what tractor you have but I rolled the seal on my injection pump shaft when reinstalling it after a rebuild. I filled up my engine oil fairly quickly with diesel fuel on my 190xt. I suppose the rubber seal could fail and do this too, but just a guess if your tractor can do this. Not familiar with that pump either so I may be off base.
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80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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DrAllis
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Posted: 17 Oct 2022 at 8:14pm |
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What model of machine ?? What YEAR is it ?? Some newer emissions engines that are idled far too much have an issue like this.
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DSeries4
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Posted: 17 Oct 2022 at 8:19pm |
 calico190xt68 wrote:
Not sure what tractor you have but I rolled the seal on my injection pump shaft when reinstalling it after a rebuild. I filled up my engine oil fairly quickly with diesel fuel on my 190xt. I suppose the rubber seal could fail and do this too, but just a guess if your tractor can do this. Not familiar with that pump either so I may be off base. |
x2.
I have the injection pump off of my 175 now because it is letting diesel into the oil as well. The CAV pump it uses has seals that are supposed to prevent that. It still started and ran great.
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'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080
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Clay
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Posted: 17 Oct 2022 at 8:50pm |
Could be there is a groove worn into the pilot tube. The seal may have been torn during re-assembly.
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calico190xt68
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Posted: 17 Oct 2022 at 8:51pm |
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I looked at my dipstick after my first reassembly and saw oil/diesel fuel pushing out around the dipstick. I knew that wasn't right. My engine oil was sparkling clean after washing it out twice with diesel fuel though. :-)
The original question was how could it happen. Even if a modern tractor, something has to turn the pump so fuel has to be leaking from that area. My 190xt started and ran fine as well during the leak.
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80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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WF owner
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Posted: 18 Oct 2022 at 6:38am |
My experience is with a Rosa Master pump. As I remember, there are two umbrella seals on the shaft that goes into the pump. If those seals are tore or wrinkled during installation, pressure in the injection pump will push diesel fuel past these seals and into the engine front cover and then into the oil pan.
The tractor will run fine, but the pump must be removed and the seals installed correctly or replaced. I believe they make a special tool to hold the seals on place during installation, but just being careful they don't get torn or wrinkled has worked for me.
Edited by WF owner - 18 Oct 2022 at 6:40am
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rieg
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Posted: 18 Oct 2022 at 7:34am |
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Thanks guys, the tractor is a 1992 jd 4760, with less than 4000 hours, it only sees about 100 hours a year now that we are mostly no-till. We keep trying to fix the problem like the new primer pump just this spring, oil changes every time we notice the oil gaining on the dipstick. At least our Allis tractors are reliable.
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rieg
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injpumpEd
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Posted: 18 Oct 2022 at 8:06am |
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It's an injector. Had a local guy 9500 combine last week had fuel in oil, and he brought me his injectors, one was stuck open. He thought it ran great still. Even when you think one is running pretty good, it may not be, the fuel is still in the cylinder, so it fires, just not properly, and the excess fuel runs down the cylinder wall.
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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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calico190xt68
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Posted: 19 Oct 2022 at 10:29am |
Ed, I thought about a leaking injector as another possibility but I assumed it wouldn't run very well. I was wrong again.
Is there any way to identify the leaking injector before de-installing? I would also assume that this could happen to any brand tractor?
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80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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55allis
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Posted: 19 Oct 2022 at 11:52am |
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I think they have two umbrella seals( ones forward, ones backwards) on the drive shaft that if the one toward the gear is worn, scuffed, or ripped it will leak diesel in the engine oil.
If it’s the other other one the Machine wont shut down because it will be running on engine oil….
Just putting my 2 cents in…
And what WF owner said…
Edited by 55allis - 19 Oct 2022 at 11:54am
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1955 AC WD45 diesel with D262 repower, 1949 AC WD45
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55allis
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Posted: 19 Oct 2022 at 11:56am |
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Allis did make a tool to help put those on, I’ll see if I can get a photo some time when I get a chance.
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1955 AC WD45 diesel with D262 repower, 1949 AC WD45
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DrAllis
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Posted: 19 Oct 2022 at 11:58am |
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A 4760 John Deere doesn't have a RoosaMaster/Stanadyne injection pump. So, it doesn't have the umbrella seals on the drive shaft like you think.
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Joe(TX)
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Posted: 19 Oct 2022 at 11:59am |
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My D19 leaked all the fuel into the engine when it was not running. It was the umbrella seals.
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1970 190XT, 1973 200, 1962 D-19 Diesel, 1979 7010, 1957 WD45, 1950 WD, 1961 D17, Speed Patrol, D14, All crop 66 big bin, 180 diesel, 1970 170 diesel, FP80 forklift. Gleaner A
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injpumpEd
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Posted: 19 Oct 2022 at 12:03pm |
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No umbrella seals on an inline Bosch/Denso pump. On this setup, 3 places can get fuel into the crankcase. Most common, Feed pump mounted on side of injection pump. Next, Fuel injection pump itself, the fuel is only in the uppermost portion, rest is engine oil lubed, drains into crankcase at front cover. Last is injectors. Typically you should notice less than perfect performance but not necessarily so, it's still putting fuel in the cylinder, so it'll fire, and develop the typical power. Another issue is a pushrod or rocker failure, and the cylinder will have no compression, but the injector is still injecting fuel, therefore fuel just runs down cylinder into crankcase. You'd be surprised how some will miss the mis lol!
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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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55allis
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Posted: 19 Oct 2022 at 12:18pm |
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Ok just thought I’d throw an idea out…
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1955 AC WD45 diesel with D262 repower, 1949 AC WD45
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rieg
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Posted: 19 Oct 2022 at 10:17pm |
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Thanks guys, this 4760 JD tractor does our heavy tillage, a 7 shank DMI ripper and a 30 foot field cultivator and runs and starts great. The gain in oil has been a problem for the last 150 hours. We had the pump rebuilt because of the problem but that didn't help so we changed the oil and put a new transfer pump on it, no change still gaining oil. It about two quart every 50 hours. Changing the oil every 50 hours is expensive I guess I will have the injectors checked. Thanks to all, I hope you are having a good harvest. rieg
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rieg
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Boss Man
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Posted: 23 Oct 2022 at 11:28am |
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The pump re builder I used to use wouldn't warranty a pump if the injectors weren't done at the same time. They had to many issues over the years of pumps coming back for wht was an injector problem
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Unit3
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Posted: 24 Oct 2022 at 7:26pm |
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Without knowing, I would think you have an 8550 or 4W305.
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