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orangeman 
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 Topic: H3 Pins and Bushings NOS
Posted: 26 Feb 2013 at 5:51pm |
Guys: I am looking to purchase a single bushing and pin for the early H3 Track and also the late H3 track. Or I would like to obtain any Allis technical literature/spec sheets that may have been issued for the H3/H4 and 650 series.
I am looking at purchasing structural DOM material using ASTM specifications for both the PIN and Bushings to make up my own set of PINs and Bushings.
A lot of work yes, will it result in improving the U/C on an old H3 yes. Would like to know about any of the pros and cons with this approach.
Would appreciate any mechanical or technical perspectives on this you might like to share. Hoping to learn some in the process.
I see others have taken this same approach with the little Cletrac HGS, small International Dozers and even some old Minneapolis Moline Jet Star dozers.
Thanks for any comments. Orangeman
PS - Please PM me if you have any NOS Pins and Bushing for an H3 Crawler Dozer for sale.
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aras
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Posted: 26 Feb 2013 at 8:23pm |
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I vote no for DOM material. Very light duty. Go with stressproof 1144 at the minimum but heat treating the bushings will be a good idea too. I'll ask other engineers at work but stressproof would be this engineers gut feeling.
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aras
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Posted: 26 Feb 2013 at 8:30pm |
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I am very interested in this as we have a 653. This has all crossed my mind once before too. These parts need to be ground and I would guess about 40C in hardness to last. I sound like a negative nancy but DOM just won't wear that well. A513 is around 1020 I believe in the property range -- too low in carbon.
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Tracy Martin TN
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Posted: 26 Feb 2013 at 9:53pm |
If it were me, I would use 8620, or S7 tool steel. Heat treat and draw accordingly. I would hard turn them if I was worried about tolerance.HTH Tracy Martin
Edited by Tracy Martin TN - 26 Feb 2013 at 9:55pm
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Coke-in-MN
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Posted: 27 Feb 2013 at 12:03am |
seems the guys from down under can get parts from China without to much problem. making parts , heat treating the pins and bushings to proper spec, then press fitting these to used rails , lot of projects there. has to be something out there to work or intrchange
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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orangeman
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Posted: 27 Feb 2013 at 5:28am |
Tracy: Are their companies in the US that have a product catalog for 8620 tube or PIN stock?
I was looking through Arcelor Mittal catalog and found 1020 and 1040 that could be quench and temper heat hardening that might be suitable for the small Allis Crawler/Dozers. I believe a competitor of Allis used 1020 and 1040 in their U/C materials for their small crawlers. The H-3 that I am working on will see less than 50 hours a year. If I put 50 years on it I will be over 100 years of age if I am lucky enough to live that long.... 
If the material is sold in stock lengths I will need to consider a good metal chop saw or similar to cut the sections to appropriate length.
I will post dimensions from the early and late chain for further discussion hopefully this evening.
Thanks for any insights! Appreciate it...Orangeman
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aras
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Posted: 27 Feb 2013 at 7:02am |
Any steel supplier can get 8620. I was wrong about stress proof -- kind of -- the big guys use fatigue proof now. 1144 machines better than 8620 but we do still use 8620 when a certain size of 1144 is not available.
If you get accurate dimensions I would be more than happy to do detailed engineering drawings for you. Plus with Coke's input on track rebuilding procedures we could get very close on the factory tolerances.
-Alex
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orangeman
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Posted: 27 Feb 2013 at 6:12pm |
Alex: Here is what i have from AC Books and field measurements:
H-3 Early chain
Bushing OTO - 1.750" Pin OTO - 1.250"
Late Chain 1963 and on
Bushing OTO - 1.875" Pin OTO - 1.200"
Pin Length Early - 5.850" Pin Length after 1963 ? Snowstorm right now and dark cannot get dimensions. Assuming it to be the same length. As grouser plates and bolt patterns stayed the same.
Master PIN length - Estimate 6" as it is longer than the balance of the Pins. Tolerance for PIN dimension for good fit to bushing ?
Sure would like to have a copy of the engineering drawings.
What are some methods and ideas to build up the chain. I can see using a copper template and building up to spec. But what process stick, mig and what type of electrode?
Coke have you tried your hand at building up rails?
Note to Tracy: Would you be so kind to elaborate on "heat treat and draw accordingly? Also, "hard turn" what is meant by that term?
More to come on this subject...
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Tracy Martin TN
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Posted: 27 Feb 2013 at 6:29pm |
Heat treat is just that. By heating the tool steel to a specific given tempature, under specified conditions, and then cooling as same, the part will harden. Keep in mind each variety of steel has specific purposes and usages, and heat treatment requirements. After the intial heat treat, a drawing is needed to homoginize the treatment process. This brings the hardness and brittleness to a usable state. After this process, the part you have produced and heat treated is at a usable condition for the specific purpose you intended.
Hard turn means just that. While the steel is in a hard state after heat treatment or pre hardened machining is done at that state of hardness. This would be done on a rigid machine or maching center. A worn out machine will not achieve the desired results. You will break your inserted tooling and cost is pricey to say the least. HTH Tracy Martin
Edited by Tracy Martin TN - 27 Feb 2013 at 6:30pm
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No greater gift than healthy grandkids!
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orangeman
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Posted: 02 Mar 2013 at 4:47am |
Tracy: Thank you for the explanations. Perhaps the bushings should be line bored to make sure the ID is true.
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Dozer
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Posted: 02 Mar 2013 at 7:08pm |
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DOM is a good choise for bushings. DOM refers to the process for manufacturing the tubing. The tubing is rolled into a tube then welded. The tube is then Drawn Over a Mandrel. The same type of mandrel that is used to make seamless tubing. DOM tubing is a replacement for seamless tubing because it offers more uniform wall thickness. Like steel it is available in different alloys like 1040 or 4140.
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Eric B
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Posted: 02 Mar 2013 at 8:48pm |
 orangeman wrote:
Guys: I am looking to purchase a single bushing and pin for the early H3 Track and also the late H3 track. Or I would like to obtain any Allis technical literature/spec sheets that may have been issued for the H3/H4 and 650 series.
I am looking at purchasing structural DOM material using ASTM specifications for both the PIN and Bushings to make up my own set of PINs and Bushings.
A lot of work yes, will it result in improving the U/C on an old H3 yes. Would like to know about any of the pros and cons with this approach.
Would appreciate any mechanical or technical perspectives on this you might like to share. Hoping to learn some in the process.
I see others have taken this same approach with the little Cletrac HGS, small International Dozers and even some old Minneapolis Moline Jet Star dozers.
Thanks for any comments. Orangeman
PS - Please PM me if you have any NOS Pins and Bushing for an H3 Crawler Dozer for sale. |
I was in a shop this week where they do a lot of John Deere undercarriage work. The JD 350 (even newer 400) is the same pitch as the H3, I believe the bushing OD is 1.75" but I didn't check on the pin diameter. With the first two measurements you could probably find a decent set of used JD tracks and put them on your H3. I'm going back there next week, I'll try to find out more.
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Currently- WD,WC,3WF's,2 D14's B. Previously- I 600,TL745,200,FL9,FR12,H3,816 LBH. Earth has no sorrow that Heaven cannot heal!
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orangeman
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Posted: 03 Mar 2013 at 3:43am |
Eric: I had heard that 350 chain would work, but have not factually confirmed that. I was concerned that with the hunting tooth design of the AC sprocket that a chain from a different manufacturer would not work.
I have also heard but not confirmed that the FA - FL-5 and FD5 chain will work. Coke might know more about the interchange of late Fiat Allis chains to early AC Industrial machines.
Thank-you for the note.
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Coke-in-MN
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Posted: 03 Mar 2013 at 11:55am |
when I welded up one set of HD5 rails I stick welded them with 7018 rod to gain height and profile - then topped that with a hard surface weld to give wear surface. I held up well for a few years but the hard surface rod overlay did crack as it wore down. A 7024 drag rod might also work well for build up if your welder has a higher Amp output to run a large size electrode. The choice of hard surface rod might be a research for better rod than I used as I uses what was called crusher buildup rod. (I do not remember the rod designation)
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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orangeman
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Posted: 03 Mar 2013 at 12:57pm |
Coke: I am thinking a Lincoln SA-200 would provide enough amperage to build up the chain? I read some Lincoln welding articles from the WWII time frame that specified a mild buildup rod then overlain with a thin layer of hardfacing.
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Coke-in-MN
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Posted: 03 Mar 2013 at 2:53pm |
Amperage is relative to the electrode used - looking at a size that gives a good coverage to top surface with minimum passes per rod . I used a 5/32 rod running at 165 A I believe and was able to get the buildup I wanted with 2 beads on root pass - then it took 3 beads to cover that weld wit ha 1/8 hard face rod. I tried to do a buildup on front idler with stick but found my welding skills were not good enough to get a even buildup. Best left to submerged arc -wire feed - machine welding. I did add a slight buildup to one upper roller but replaces that when I got a good used unit at right price.
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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Coke-in-MN
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Posted: 03 Mar 2013 at 2:55pm |
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Have not checked the specs on the HD5 to FD5 track . Have a set of FD5 I bought a while back that i just put on my machine . Will have to see if I can find information on pitch of each .
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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Ian Beale
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Posted: 06 Mar 2013 at 4:18am |
Orangeman,
I tripped over this on the googler looking for info on Italian Vender crawlers.
A supplier, might not be much use, except uhder International it does list HD11B.
FWIW
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Ian Beale
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Posted: 06 Mar 2013 at 4:18am |
Help if I posted the link too!
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Forestgnome
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Posted: 06 Mar 2013 at 5:38pm |
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I've done hard turning on my old 10" Sheldon using Cermet inserts, so a monster-sized lathe with lots of hp isn't necessary with the right inserts. Look out for fire though. The material appears to drip off in a molten state. Actually seems to cut like butter once it gets into the material. Clean the pan first!
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orangeman
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Posted: 06 Mar 2013 at 7:20pm |
Hello Forestgnome: I have a 1944 Sheldon L-44 hoping that will do the trick to true up the bore. I am getting closer to getting the original stock.
Since the gas exploration business is booming in the southern part of the our State I may be able to secure what I need through drop shipment to them.
Minimum order is 5,000 pounds minimum buy but believe I can tag onto an order with a drilling company.
Note to Aras: Are you still around and available to do a CADD or microstation drawing?
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aras
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Posted: 06 Mar 2013 at 7:49pm |
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