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orangeman 
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 Topic: Hydraulic Filter Cart for Allis Chalmers,
Posted: 29 Jul 2023 at 12:29pm |
Fiat Allis and Deutz Allis Tractors and Industrial equipment.
Am working on several AC Farm and Industrial Equipment machines that were prior owned to my ownership. That said, this summer has been busy with repair of a number of hydraulic cylinders.
After opening the systems to progress repairs, I am unsatisfied with the discoloration of the hydraulic oil that I have seen when it appears to have a brownish discoloration. Am hoping that the team here has had exposure to using a filter cart to clean up hydraulic oil and could offer their recommendations.
Am wondering if it would be best to buy a unit or if I should take the time to research the components and build one and perhaps what are some of the design control criteria that should be considered in conjunction with the design of a filter cart. Being retired allows for the opportunity to either buy outright or build it.
Certainly would appreciate anyone's thoughts or ideas from any of the sages here that have been down this road. Hope everyone is enjoying this summer!
Respectfully, ~ Orangeman
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steve(ill)
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
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Posted: 29 Jul 2023 at 1:38pm |
all i know is they are not cheap... If you start with a 120v barrel pump to build your own, that is $5- 700. right there... Then you need a few filters.. Try to get a "standard" filter that is cheap and easy to replace... and the filter HEADS... screw on would be simple to change out quick as comparted to a filter in a box..
Purchase units normally run $5-7000. You would think they would not cost that much.. ANd many a "special filters" that you have to buy from the manufacturer and cost $100- 300 each.
Would be best to have PRE FILTER which is a coarse suction screen, then a 30 micron filter.. and finally a 10 micron... Maybe two sets in parallel for more flow..
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 29 Jul 2023 at 1:52pm |
no prices, but cart options...
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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orangeman
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Posted: 29 Jul 2023 at 2:25pm |
Thanks Steve-I was over on Heavy Equipment Forums and noticed that some are discussing filtering down to 5 micron. Yes I agree the pre filter would be important. As I understand it once the filter cart is connected to the manifold on the unit being serviced the machine is started and runs through several "load" cycles as the loader or backhoe are cycled.
Thanks Much ~ Orangeman
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Codger
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Posted: 29 Jul 2023 at 3:15pm |
I have a Schroeder Brothers filter cart. Three micron is about as fine as you want at about three gallon per minute flow rate. Two micron and smaller will strip out some of the anti wear additives blended into the oil.
I run a 100 mesh, (about 40 micron) pre filter followed by a 10 micron spin on followed by a five micron spin on filter on Lenz bases. The three micron serpentine flow final filters are about $100.00 each so want the trash removed first to extend their service life. Each filter is monitored for restriction so only changed out when expended to contain cost.
Edited by Codger - 29 Jul 2023 at 3:24pm
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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DrAllis
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Posted: 30 Jul 2023 at 6:35am |
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Are you saying that a particular machine has had a failure of hydraulic cylinders ?? Bad looking oil (if it was mine) would get diesel fuel added (2 gallons diesel to 6 gallons of oil capacity) and run for a few minutes at slow idle and CHANGED, giving it plenty of time to drip empty. Refill with correct new oil and all new filters. Clean any and all suction screens if there are any. Personally, I often times leave a livestock magnet (or 2 or 3) placed near a suction screen (if there has been a failure) so it can collect any iron debris that may need to be cleaned up. We have a couple of filter carts at work (Caterpillar). They are not routinely used. They are only used when there has been a massive failure in a hydraulic system or transmission area, all the affected components repaired, other cylinders and coolers disassembled and cleaned and then with new oil installed and engine running, the filtering process begins to clean up whatever couldn't be cleaned.
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Codger
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Posted: 30 Jul 2023 at 6:57am |
I have done the diesel fuel system clean many times through the years for a system neglected a long time. It works well and it really brings out the armchair quarterbacks and negative critics routinely. As said, the treatment however works, and works very well wicking up sludge and metallic debris into the oil stream. Neodymium magnets placed near intake, or suction ports of a reservoir do a very good job of entrapping/capturing metallic debris and holding it fast till the magnets can be removed, cleaned, replaced, and the system ran again with the same treatment. It is the same scenario basically as any automatic transmission, and most gear drives have magnets in their reservoir pan, or magnetic drain plugs.
I usually leave the magnets in place and bill them to the customer along with instructions and guidance on what to do into the future. 3/4" diameter are usually large enough about 1/8" to 3/16" thick for maintenance purposes, (larger and thicker is better if room allows). Here is a link from Mcmaster-Carr and I've used theirs in the past with good results:
Edited by Codger - 30 Jul 2023 at 7:57am
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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orangeman
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Posted: 30 Jul 2023 at 8:53am |
Codger and Dr. Allis: Thank - you for taking the time to reply and for your excellent suggestions!
To clarify, the machines I am working on are a 715 loader backhoe and a D14 loader backhoe.
The 715 is down for service work on the loader hydraulic lift and bucket tilt cylinders circuit - three of the four hydraulic cylinders leaked sufficiently that warrant removal and repair. While down for service,I took inventory of the remainder of the cylinders on the backhoe portion and steering axle - all of those are in excellent OEM condition with no leaks and no evidence of any service. This unit sat on a farm locally and was used for ditching and I think dead cow removal which might explain the leakage on the loader cylinders. It has a cab with a working heater which will be nice for the cold winters that we get here in Northern NY state.
The hydraulic oil had no evidence of water, but did show a brownish discoloration. which concerns me. I noted a date stamp on the air filter of 1982 so between the air filter and the hydraulic oil (brownish color) am thinking the prior owners post phoned some of the overall maintenance as they had decided to sell it and move to a small JD excavator.
The good news is that the Webster hydraulic pump seems to be responsive and the backhoe - loader operations work fine. Other than the loader cylinders there were no failures of the hydraulics that warranted and further dis -assembly of the system.
The D14 backhoe has seen a rough life as the hydraulic pump was replaced and the outriggers both leak. The original Commercial Shearing pump has been removed and replaced with a new Parker - Commercial pump which works just fine. While there are no operational problems I would like to flush and drain the system to establish a baseline.
After servicing the backhoes, I will be moving on to an AC 655 Crawler - loader and a few H-3 crawlers that will be brought back to service to help with opening spring roads for maple syrup season and moving topsoil. They may also do some limited lawn grading and benching (small scale) to prettify the place. The H-3"s will more than likely all need hydraulic system flushes with new oil and filters as well, thus the consideration for a filter cart.
Thanks again for the excellent insights!
Respectully, ~ Orangeman
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 30 Jul 2023 at 1:25pm |
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Guess it depends on how much you want to spend and the usefullness of the cart years down the road... 3 of 55 gallon drums of Hydraulic fluid would cost you $1800. and you could fill all the tractors and be done with it.... Recycling oil that was put in 1980 would get it CLEAN, but probably has the addatives all used up and the viscosity is ???
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Codger
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Posted: 30 Jul 2023 at 4:13pm |
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Believe it or not, if hydraulic oil, (for instance) is filtered down to three micron, the remaining base product can be tested and additive packages be blended back into the oil to be for the most part a new product again. Water is readily separated from petroleum products at greater than five micron rating and once any water is removed, the balance of filtration is quite easy. This is why you need a large water separator/filter media base, and a slow flow rate so the water will separate from the oil products. Serpentine, or centrifugal oil feed action works very well for separation. Centrifugal is much faster of course but is a mechanical action were serpentine is completely self sufficient with exception of the pump feeding the oil.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 30 Jul 2023 at 4:43pm |
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YEP.... thats why i think he needs a LONG TERM PLAN....What would it cost to buy a unit.. or make a unit +labor ? How often will it be used ?... Compare to maybe 3 NEW barrels and done ?
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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