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Mini-Split heating/cooling

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WF owner View Drop Down
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Joined: 12 May 2013
Location: Bombay NY
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    Posted: 25 Feb 2023 at 6:51am
We installed a heat pump (mini-split) heating and cooling system in November and I thought I would post my results.

Prior to the mini-splits, we used a wood pellet furnace and we had a Toyotomi (Monitor brand previously) heater. We used about 2 bags of pellets per day and maybe a gallon (+/-) of kerosene per day. The system worked really well. Our problem came when we wanted to go to Florida for a month last year. My nephew, that lives next door, and one of my son-in-law's, that drives by the house on his way to work, agreed to keep the pellet furnace filled with pellets. 

My wife and I decided that it was time to upgrade to something that didn't require daily maintenance. One of my son-in-laws is a contractor. He had a mini-split installed in their, then new, house when he built it in 2013. They added a second two years ago, and another one in their 28' x 56' garage (with 16' ceilings) last year. He claimed I could drastically reduce energy costs for heating and cooling.

New York State has a program called NYSERDA (New York State Energy Research and Development Authority) that, among other programs, has rebates for installing energy efficient systems. I filled out a form for them and they gave me a list of three contractors in my area, that participate in their rebate program. I contacted all three contractors. One said they only did commercial work, one came and look at it and said he would be in touch soon. Soon has never come. We saw him last June and, despite a couple phone calls, he never got us an estimate. The third guy preached Mitubishi brand (they are supposed to be the best) from the time he walked in the house. When he gave me the estimate, his estimate was for Westinghouse! He told me the Mitubishi were too expensive. It turned out Westinghouse were too. His estimate was for $28,000 !

When I was talking to my son-in-law, he told me he would talk to the contractor (in Canada) that did his work, and that he works with often through his work. I gave him a layout of our living area (about 38' x 54'). He, together with my son-in-law, worked up a system. It has three 12K "heads" on the south side of the house with a 27K heat pump (they set them up that way because not all three heads ever run at maximum at the same time) and a 24K and another 12K (separate heat pumps - we could have used one, but it was only $140 more for two pumps and if one has a problem, the other will still work). The brand is Comfortmaker, which is a Carrier subsidiary. The contractor that I got them from has an extensive inventory and carries a lot of replacement parts.

Our system has a SEER (Seasonal Energy Efficiency Rating) is 22. The higher the SEER, the colder the system works. We had one day the reached -27F (with 30 mph winds) and the system was working.

We installed the system in early November. I did all the electrical work, installed the bases for the heat pumps, set the heat pumps, drilled all the holes for the lines and hung all five heads. The contractor came in and ran the refrigerant lines and pulled a vacuum on them. (He even offered me a job doing his electrical and prep work, which I quickly declined!) Counting my time, we ended up with about $11,000 in the system. We didin't get any rebates from NYSERDA, but saved a lot of money.

We love the system! As I'm sitting here, this morning, its -13F outside, but a toasty 70F inside. We keep the "great room" (kitchen, dining and living room) at 70F, the "sun room" at 60F and turn it up to 70 when we are using it and the (three) bedrooms at 68F.

Our December power bill was up about $65 from "normal" ($150 to $215), but that was not a full month. January's bill was $315 and December's was $408. I should add that our December and January bills includes a very extensive Christmas light display (10,000 lights, LED's and pixels). If I was still using pellets and kerosene, I estimate that I would be spending $12 per day for two bags of pellets and $6 for a gallon of kerosene, for a total of $18 per day or $540 per month for heating. The system will pay for itself quickly, plus we will have AC throughout the house in hot weather.

If I can answer any questions, I would be happy to. Sorry post is so long!
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jaybmiller View Drop Down
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Greensville,Ont
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2023 at 7:26am
Don't be sorry !
It's great to get the 'details'
Always nice to hear someone WON !!!

I've had 16-20 contractors 'interested' in my easy 2nd floor on garage project.Only one has come here and he didn't even quote on the project. I'm thinking they're so busy making money elsewhere ,they don't need a 1 week 'fillin' project.

The wife complained about the HIGH natgas heating bill..doesn't understand that we used LESS gas than last year BUT the 'carbon tax' is 1/3rd of the bill ....
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)

Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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DMiller View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2023 at 7:38am
Do the Mini systems use a backup Resistance heater when the air temp precludes heat exchange?  Know the standard HP system flogs along unable to make heat when cannot pull heat from really cold ambient air.  Neighbors with standard Forced Air HP have to backup to resistance or LP below 25 degrees, just run and run and run without any appreciable gain below 25.  Ground source can keep up so long as frost line does not get to loops, spoke to several with wells where those leave the wells too HIGH in grade and end up losing heat value according to installers of those.  If have a pond to be cleaned out or installed is another point of consideration as to laying the loops in the bottom mud prior to a refill and making certain are at least 5' deep from and to the structure.

We heat/Cool a 3000sf area in our home, and on same meter heat/cool my workshop 30x18x12 space, unless have to go on backup resistance heat our bill has not ever crossed $300 for BOTH systems.  Have all the bills since built as evidence where only that winter coil cracked and leaked did we have to go on resistance heat, went to almost $600 for that few week period of a month.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2023 at 9:05am
backup heater may be an 'option' BUT you NEED  BIG power wiring during the install !
I'm thinking 99.44% of all installs aren't in k-k-k-k-kold regions of the world.
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)

Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2023 at 9:47am
I dont think the new mini splits need backup heaters... Most have pretty small wiring to them...

You need to look at the COST OF ELECTRICITY in your area... WF being in NY might be in the $.25 a KW range.. Mid WEST with AMEREN might be half that.... Midwest with  Rural Elect might be $.20  KW .............. all depends on where you live and WHO supplies the power............... but the NEW MINI splits are getting really efficient.... SEER in the 20- 22 range is great !
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2023 at 9:49am
Will a mini split heat my house in winter?
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Mini-Split Heat Pump Performance In Cold Weather

That said, a mini-split can surprisingly heat well, even when the outdoor temperature gets down to -5 degrees. Mini-splits can provide enough heat on their own to warm your entire home, or can be paired with a supplemental heat source on extremely cold days for a boost.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Dave H View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2023 at 10:46am
Well, I got curious.  Live in central IL.  Apples and oranges, but heat and cool entirely with geo thermal and am on REA.  The portion of the bill for house heat and hot water was $73.50 for  this last December.  House is 23 year old and 2500 sq ft. 

Just something else to stick in your pipe and smoke it, like my daddy always said.  Wink  LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WF owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2023 at 10:50am
We do have backups. We installed a couple electric baseboard (240 volt) heaters. We have both set at 50F. We also still have the Toyotomi kerosene heater set at 50. None have come on yet this winter. This winter has been mostly mild, but we have had a handful of days that were below 0F (including today). The guy that sold me the units (and installed them) told me they were very efficient down to about -20F. Efficiency goes down at temperatures lower than that.

I did start the pellet furnace one day, because my wife was painting some Christmas decorations in the back room, where the pellet furnace is. She needed heat. But that is the only supplemental heat we have had this winter.

One of my cousins has an older mini-split system and his only heats down to the 20F range. They are much more efficient now than just a few years ago.

I do find that the compressors go to DF mode (defrost) more when it is cold. My system does not have a supplemental resistance heater, but I have heard of some units that do. To give you an idea of energy consumption, each compressor uses 10 gauge (10-2) wire from a 240 volt, 20 amp breaker.

It's pretty easy to confuse mini-splits with geo-thermal. The mini-split compressor is strictly air, while the geo-thermal uses either wells or buried tubing to cool water for the heating/cooling. I looked into geo-thermal, but it was so expensive that I didn't think someone my age would ever see a benefit, plus I didn't want to tear my lawn all up.

I hadn't been in Comfortmaker's website for a while. They claim 75% heating efficiency down to -22F. I think comparing Comfortmaker to other brands is kind of like comparing Ford to Chevrolet to Dodge. All have good points and some bad. The consenus seems to be that Mitubishi is the best, but they are very expensive.

Here's a link to Comfortmaker's website.

My next purchase will be a standby generator, hopefully big enough to power them.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lars(wi) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2023 at 10:57am
Residential electric in our city(city owned co-op), is .1327
I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WF owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2023 at 11:06am
I just looked at my electric bill. We have a charge for the electricity and a charge for "delivery". Combined the cost we pay is .15128613787 (15.1 cents) and my usage last month was 2698 kwh for a total of $406.17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2023 at 12:33pm
here are a few STATE Averages for Elect price... of course, it depends on where in the state you are located.... Large power company can be different than REA.... Coal plants much cheaper than oil  / diesel ... etc.




Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WF owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2023 at 1:11pm
I have a huge hydroelectric dam about 10 miles from me (as the crow flies), but our electricity comes from Quebec.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2023 at 2:29pm
well THAT explains why MY electricity is so dang expensive !!!!
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
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Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2023 at 3:01pm
Energy price here is pretty stable REA, been at .125 kwh for close to six months.
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