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Codger 
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Joined: 23 Dec 2020
Location: Illinois
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 Topic: Steering Clutches Release:
Posted: 21 Feb 2023 at 7:28am |
My son poses a question I'll post up. With the engine at working rpm but not pushing, and if the steering clutch release levers are pulled back without application of foot brakes, should the tractor roll to a stop, or should slight steering clutch drag keep it moving? If in neutral with say 1250 engine rpm, and steering clutches released, (both sides) then the transmission placed/dropped into gear, should the tractor move or act as if the transmission is in neutral? This is of course on the 11B with hydraulic release steering clutches.
I habitually pull the steering clutch release and stab the brake pedal(s) so really haven't intentionally done what the questions pose?
Thanks,
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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Ian Beale
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Joined: 03 Oct 2011
Location: New South Wales
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Posted: 21 Feb 2023 at 4:08pm |
For setting the pre-load on sprocket bearings of an FA 10 the book says -
"To rotate the sprocket (at 15 to 20 rpm) with the machine running, hold the engine at part throttle, disengage the steering clutch acting on the opposite sprocket and shift into low (forward or reverse)."
Which looks like that sprocket is supposed to stop I'm presuming?
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Codger
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Location: Illinois
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Posted: 21 Feb 2023 at 7:56pm |
Thanks Ian. I really don't know on this tractor as not enough experience. This one hasn't had any service since 10/06 and was setting inside a closed machine shed till I purchased last year. The oil may be "sticky" from setting so long or the steering clutch discs are not yet free floating when the hydraulic release pressure is applied. The tractor steers very well both left and right and brakes are not "grabby" in any sense and neither is steering clutch engagement.
If you have the throttle elevated but holding the decelerator pedal depressed and pull the steering clutch release handles, (both) the tractor does not move. If you let off the decelerator pedal and the engine speed comes up, the tractor will slowly drive off in either forward or reverse as selected. This is of course with the blade elevated. With the blade down it won't move. I don't know if this is normal or not. I have an operator's manual in paper print and it's the only manual I don't have in soft copy. It is with the tractor so cannot read it right now. Need to get it scanned so I have easy access from my house. The steering service manual shows how to rebuild things and set them up but nothing about the "creep" I'm experiencing.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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Les Kerf
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Joined: 08 May 2020
Location: Idaho
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Posted: 21 Feb 2023 at 8:20pm |
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When you think about it those clutch discs really don't move all that far apart, and it is unlikely that they move perfectly straight when they do move so it seems plausible that there will be some drag. I have always found that touching the brake while turning seems to help.
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Codger
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Posted: 21 Feb 2023 at 9:16pm |
I agree Les. This one will "drift" turn if a steering clutch is released but no brake applied and turn on it's own axis with little brake application and a steering clutch released. No doubt they are working and releasing, but I just wonder how much "drag" is acceptable? I plan to change all fluids before going to work over the Memorial Day weekend with the tractor. No tellings how long it's been since it had fresh fluids although it was serviced annually by the prior owner. He however doesn't really know what was actually done. I can tell the steering clutches and bevel gear strainer have not been apart for many years as there is so much crud encrusting it the bolts holding the unit together are not visible.
Steam cleaner will be taken after it sometime next month when it starts warming up a little more. Oils, and filters have been ordered with some received to give it a good service at that time.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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Eric B
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Joined: 09 Feb 2012
Location: British Columbi
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Posted: 21 Feb 2023 at 11:21pm |
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I have no personal experience with this issue on Fiat Allis, only on Caterpillar. There should be an access plug where you can check the oil pressure going to the clutch release cylinders. Of course you need all the specs from the manual to know the required pressure. For all the Cats I had over the years, this 'drag' you refer to did not occur on any of them except for one. The oil pressure became too low, after warm up, from operating the machine. I had more than just a bit of drag, it would require increased pedal pressure to steer (only once really warm). In your case it doesn't really sound like a cause for concern, perhaps. In addition to adequate oil pressure the clutch release mechanism (on Cat) also had to be set up correctly according to specs or there could still be cause for drag.
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Currently- WD,WC,3WF's,2 D14's B. Previously- I 600,TL745,200,FL9,FR12,H3,816 LBH. Earth has no sorrow that Heaven cannot heal!
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Codger
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Posted: 22 Feb 2023 at 4:11am |
Thank you Eric. Your explanation is "spot on" to what I'm asking about. I've not tapped the ports with pressure gauges and flow meter but will during the upcoming service to be performed. My manuals do cover the procedures and specifications to be met. The steering valves are completely buried in dirt/mud accumulation over the years but I hold the oil in the sump suspect from setting and the additive package becoming "sticky" rather than slick. I had a sticking spool valve in the torque converter charge pressure regulator stuck open and draining the transmission sump. These steering clutches are obviously releasing and may free up more with use as I've talked to the prior owner and he states they would freewheel when pulled back when using the tractor regularly several years ago.
Here is a photo of the steering valve which also has a thorough procedure for measuring spool travel, flow, and pressure ratings:
Now if only the tractor were that clean..... You can see where this valve is located on the top of the transmission in the photo on the left. I had to dig dirt out of the area to find the valve as it was completely encased with only the tops of the pressure lines visible. For reference the round cylindrical thing on the upper right of the photo is the steering and bevel gear strainer. The bolt heads holding this together you can see were buried in dirt and you could not see them at first. With the area cleaned up a bit it really is pretty accessible but I'm going to remove the seat and mounting assembly along with the fuel tank and pressure wash everything clean. The belly pans need to be removed for the same reason(s). Don't have a photo that shows how much buildup/crap is in there.
I continue to learn as I muddle along with this tractor but it is distant from me now. We usually open the family property up in March and have a get together for the Easter celebration and egg hunt for the kids. I'll be down tending to that among other things prior. Going to take my steam cleaner, bulk water tank, and portable generator set to wash this good and clean prior to service.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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DMiller
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Hermann, Mo
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Posted: 22 Feb 2023 at 5:12am |
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Allis seemed to be 'Different' to other Yellow Iron, even the Green ones. Operated Euc/Terex, Cat, Case, Deere, IH Drott with a few others, The ones that would steer off clutches were the Cats and Euc lines, IH and Allis tended to have to have pressure on the blade/bucket or touch a brake, Case was the only one can remember had other peculiarities with the variables on its clutch actuation functions. Deere was just weird.
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Codger
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Posted: 22 Feb 2023 at 8:16am |
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Interesting Dave. This is the only tractor I've operated in a long time that had independent steering clutch, and service brake application linkages. Every dozer I've operated in the past has been either pedal steer, (Case, Cat) or pull handles. A light pull releases the clutch and a harder pull applies the brake after the clutch is released. This clutch "drag" I'm concerned with may be nature of the beast, but given the oil is so old in the tractor I'm going to replace it and hopefully improve on what is there. Both clutches are smooth on engagement, or release, so can't be much of anything wrong I'd think.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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Rick
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Jonesburg,Mo.
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Posted: 22 Feb 2023 at 10:14am |
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Might be a dumb question, but when you replaced the steering clutches, did you also replace the steel plates as well? If not, then they could be warped...just something to check out...if you did replace them, then you can rule that out...Rick
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Codger
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Posted: 22 Feb 2023 at 11:08am |
Hi Rick. No work has been done to the steering clutches at all. The tractor has been awakened from a 15 year dormancy period in a building. I've had sticking hydraulic spool valves which share the same oil supply and questioning if this is suffering the same phenomena.
Thanks for the tip. I replace all steels and frictions in a transmission or wet clutch job; always. Seen them warped, and seen them work well cold until the temperature comes up, then not release. Best to start with new parts unless NLA.
Thanks,
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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DMiller
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Location: Hermann, Mo
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Posted: 22 Feb 2023 at 1:40pm |
Cat themselves have a better smaller and more sensitive design. All comes out from the Top, Final and Clutches, can destroy a little easier but do disengage re-engage sharper than the Allis and IH Series ever did. Terex Euclid were second best IMHO. Deere, Requires Hyd to ENGAGE, spring Off, different thought. Case, used a Differential instead of spool, also, Different.
Know are expensive but the Cat Hydro beats Deere LONG and FAR, really hard to beat a 963/973 with Hydro where can Hard pedal down counter rotate tracks.
Edited by DMiller - 22 Feb 2023 at 1:42pm
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Codger
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Posted: 23 Feb 2023 at 12:38pm |
Problem has appeared to self correct with a couple of hours on the machine and actually using the steering clutches. Son reports the tractor is almost in neutral with the steering levers pulled back and all but a full throttle engine rpm setting. Still Improving I'm thinking from his explanation. The oil change and routine service to be performed certainly won't hurt anything.
Says mother in law is going to be pissed when she sees the yard too.....
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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