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fixer1958 
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Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Location: kansas
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 Posted: 03 Nov 2021 at 11:39am |
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Pure F###### Magic is what it is.
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Kansas99
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Joined: 26 Feb 2015
Location: W Kansas
Points: 4807
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Posted: 03 Nov 2021 at 4:15pm |
 Dusty MI wrote:
Kansas99 wrote:
Hey guys, if I center punch a hole and drill 4 inches to the side is my hole in the right spot?  
God lord Freed, my guess would be they survey a line over the mountain and luckily there was more than one transit in the world back then, so they set a transit on each side and someone looked through it to make sure the center of the tunnel was on the line.
What if the tunnel had a curve in it ?
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That means the surveyors were in the whiskey bottle too long.
Actually all BS aside I worked for a surveyor in college and we we're looking for quarter corners in Liberal KS for a housing subdivision. At the same time they were redoing Kansas Ave. through town and the contractor failed to file endangered quarter corner report, so we were at the court house raising hell and they brought us every book they had. The surveyor I worked for always told me he didn't know how anything was straight in this country because surveyors were the biggest drunks around. Well as we were going through the books, wouldn't you know it right there in the survey reports he had noted that he placed a whiskey bottle beneath the corner rock! Nonetheless we ended up two miles outside of town to find a second corner and the rock we're trying to find with the whiskey bottle was long gone so I can't tell you if the bottle was full or empty.
and don't get be started on measuring sewer depths for a housing subdivision, I still have nightmares about what I saw.
Edited by Kansas99 - 03 Nov 2021 at 4:17pm
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"LET"S GO BRANDON!!"
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FREEDGUY
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Joined: 15 Apr 2017
Location: South West Mich
Points: 5391
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Posted: 03 Nov 2021 at 5:25pm |
Dusty MI wrote:
[QUOTE=Kansas99]Hey guys, if I center punch a hole and drill 4 inches to the side is my hole in the right spot?
God lord Freed, my guess would be they survey a line over the mountain and luckily there was more than one transit in the world back then, so they set a transit on each side and someone looked through it to make sure the center of the tunnel was on the line.
What if the tunnel had a curve in it ?
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[/QUOTE Thanks Dusty, some of these cat's think they have ALL of the answers, maybe they can get on a WH cabinet position 
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FREEDGUY
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Joined: 15 Apr 2017
Location: South West Mich
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Posted: 03 Nov 2021 at 5:38pm |
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steve(ill)
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 77840
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Posted: 03 Nov 2021 at 5:41pm |
maybe they can get on a WH cabinet position 
the way things are going in the DC... that might be a VERY SHORT JOB ASSIGNMENT !
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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steve(ill)
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
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Posted: 03 Nov 2021 at 5:43pm |
I awake EVERY morning @ 5:15-20 (EST) without an alarm clock, get to a job site
Just in time for the guy with the BRAINS to give you a daily assignment !! 
Edited by steve(ill) - 03 Nov 2021 at 5:43pm
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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DMiller
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Hermann, Mo
Points: 29559
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Posted: 03 Nov 2021 at 6:29pm |
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Grandfather set a Block Foundation, By Hand using a Water Level and string lines, off square for 1700sf by 1/8", built the House BY Hand using a Carpenter Square a Try Square a folding rule a cloth tape measure and his own mindset skills, set Hip Roof joists cut with a Hand Saw, cut all his lumber with a Hand Saw, did not ever own a Skilsaw. DID use a transit to establish Lot lines and corners.
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DiyDave
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Gambrills, MD
Points: 50551
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Posted: 03 Nov 2021 at 6:43pm |
Dusty MI wrote:
Kansas99 wrote:
Hey guys, if I center punch a hole and drill 4 inches to the side is my hole in the right spot?
God lord Freed, my guess would be they survey a line over the mountain and luckily there was more than one transit in the world back then, so they set a transit on each side and someone looked through it to make sure the center of the tunnel was on the line.
What if the tunnel had a curve in it ?
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Gassy built it?
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Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need!
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klinemar
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Michigan
Points: 7933
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Posted: 03 Nov 2021 at 7:04pm |
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klinemar
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Michigan
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Posted: 03 Nov 2021 at 9:05pm |
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Kansas99
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Joined: 26 Feb 2015
Location: W Kansas
Points: 4807
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Posted: 04 Nov 2021 at 7:34pm |
FREEDGUY wrote:
Dusty MI wrote:
[QUOTE=Kansas99]Hey guys, if I center punch a hole and drill 4 inches to the side is my hole in the right spot?
God lord Freed, my guess would be they survey a line over the mountain and luckily there was more than one transit in the world back then, so they set a transit on each side and someone looked through it to make sure the center of the tunnel was on the line.
What if the tunnel had a curve in it ?
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[/QUOTEThanks Dusty, some of these cat's think they have ALL of the answers, maybe they can get on a WH cabinet position |
Maybe, just maybe you should look at a transit, then you'd understand how you can make a curve.
I doubt this will help but hey it's worth a shot, this is the base of a fairly old vintage. The confusing part would be one turns to the left on one side and one turns to the right on the other, but that starting point is still that same straight line.
Edited by Kansas99 - 04 Nov 2021 at 8:31pm
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"LET"S GO BRANDON!!"
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Kansas99
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Joined: 26 Feb 2015
Location: W Kansas
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Posted: 04 Nov 2021 at 7:45pm |
Here you go Freed, this is a much cheaper version of the same thing that would also make that same curve. This picture shows the obvious way it’s done with a transit. It’s all about those degrees, kinda like those minutes of angle on your rifle scope. 
Edited by Kansas99 - 04 Nov 2021 at 7:47pm
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"LET"S GO BRANDON!!"
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klinemar
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Posted: 04 Nov 2021 at 7:59pm |
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When I was in High School I had a class called House Building where Trades like Carpentry,Electrical and Masonary were taught. We were preparing to pour Concrete on the Basement floor and installing a Sump for a Sump Pump and to tell how long ago this was the Sump was a large Clay Tile. Anyway one of the students was a large boy,over 300lbs. We were using a transit to set the Sump and Dave was reading the Transit and we were having difficulty getting it the right height with the drains and floor height. Finally the instructor figured out that Dave's weight when walking around the Transit was throwing it off level! We compacted the earth more and didn't have any more trouble.
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Kansas99
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Joined: 26 Feb 2015
Location: W Kansas
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Posted: 04 Nov 2021 at 8:24pm |
That's funny, there's a reason you always see them bending over to look thru them with their hands behind their back.
The most idiotic thing we ever did was shooting elevations for a flood plain in a town that hadn't seen the river run since they built the John Martin but there is always that chance and when you do that you have to go to a known point of elevation and transit your way back. The funny thing is we had one of those "at the time" fancy computer transits but when it came to that we had to get the stick and old reliable out to make certain we were right, otherwise you could take that new computer and shoot over 6 hills 5 miles away and go with what it said, but on a flood plain, no sir we did it the old fashioned way. Of course that was 30 years ago so probably just go with the old reliable Garmin today.
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"LET"S GO BRANDON!!"
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DaveKamp
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 5639
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Posted: 04 Nov 2021 at 11:22pm |
To drill a hole from both sides, start by standing on TOP of the mountain, and look at the approach and departure point on each side. MOVE to a point directly ABOVE where the tunnel will pass. From there, set your transit. Establish TWO markpoints, one on each side, that are 180 degrees opposite, and mark the azimuth and elevation from your position, on your chart. Place a markpoint on your position, that will be equally visible from the two distant markpoints.
Now move to one of the distant markpoints, set up your transit, and set up on your mountaintop marker. Set your transit elevation DOWN to your desired entry point, and measure the downset angle. Set markpoints on the mountain face entry point... and place a pair of markers in DIRECT LINE of the entry point, that create a 'gunsight'.
Repeat for the other end.
Start digging at the mountain face. As you proceed inward, carry in your mousehole gauge. The mousehole gauge is a stick 4ft high, with a stick 8ft wide on it. Each time the tunnel gains another 10 feet, place the gauge at the end of your tunnel... short stick on the ground, long stick against sides. At the center of the gauge is a hanger for your lantern. Your guiding officer will look through the aperture in the 'gunsight', and if your lantern's light is too low, too high, too left, or too right, he will TELL you which way to go.
This is how a straight-bore tunnel is accomplished from two sides... and realize- the tunnel starts as a 'mousehole'... just dug far enough to get IN and THROUGH. As the 'mousehole' is dug, narrow-gauge temporary rails are set to facilitate rolling in several hand- or mule-pulled carts for carrying out spoils. Once all the way through, the walls are expanded to make the full-size tunnel.
For a curved tunnel, the charts are interpolated over the curve such that at X distance in, the gunsight needs to reflect a 'drift left' or 'drift right' by a certain distance. Initially, this will be done by observing the change in position of the gauge lantern, but as the curve passes visibility, a new marker is placed at a known point in the tunnel's depth, an d the new angle is set with a transit.
ONCE the tunnels are within 60-70ft of eachother, one crew will silence, and a stethoscope operator will probe the endwall and listen for digging on the other side, and by angling the probe, determine wether a slight adjustment is necessary to intercept the other side. Doing this from both sides assures that eventually, one crew's mousehole will meet the other crew's mousehole...
and once they do, opening up to full tunnel diameter assures that any lack of alignment will NEVER be noticeable.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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DMiller
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Hermann, Mo
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Posted: 05 Nov 2021 at 6:14am |
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I still use a old school transit
Once leveled and set to a defined Base Witness marker(that should always remain) not much can go wrong.
At the BIL’s farm we drove old truck axles(ton truck sized) in the ground, be there long after we are gone.
Edited by DMiller - 05 Nov 2021 at 6:15am
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DaveKamp
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 5639
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Posted: 05 Nov 2021 at 9:17am |
The prevailing thought of most people nowdays, is that modern electronics are somehow superior to old methods, and while they MAY be 'more convenient', they do not have any assured superior accuracy, and in many cases, they present LESS than so-referred 'antiquated' methods.
The foundations of accuracy come back to very simple principles... Geometric features of lines, planes, and triangles.
There are really only TWO thing you can truely depend on... Gravity, and Triangles. (Cats not so much).
The concepts of dimensional accuracy depend solely on triangles. Surveying is nothing more than establishing reference points, and using lines to describe positions in a plane, which is, of course, the feature of a triangle (two points defines a line, three points defines a plane).
Surveyors use gravity (a level) and a magnetic compass (reference of azimuth) to HELP in the process, but there are circumstances where a magnetic compass is NOT effective, and there are circumstances when gravity isn't entirely practical (placing a water level on either side of a mountain, for instance).
One could say that an old-fashioned surveyor's transit is 'crude', it's actually just the opposite, and I'll present a proof of this:
When I turn a piece of metal in my lathe, I can measure it with a ruler, or a vernier caliper, or a dial caliper, or a digital caliper, to check for variations of anywhere from an inch, to a tenth, or a thousanth, or a hundred-thou, and these tools will reveal it.
If I place a light source at one end of the part, and I stand at an angle on the other end, and look at the reflection of the light, I can SEE WITH MY EYES... a variation of that surface dimension, to less than one hundred-thou, and if I place a straightedge so that it shadows my light, I can see a deviation of a MILLIONTH.
That's just simple physics... it's triangles, and my measurement medium is LIGHT.
What else uses LIGHT as a measuring tool? A laser... but how do they do it with the laser? Usually, with reflectometry and chronography... they send a pulse of light across a distance and measure the TIME it takes to make the trip. It ASSUMES the amount of travel time is predictable (not necessarily) and ASSUMES that the timing mechanism is accurate (certainly not), so there's plenty of room for accuracy issue there...
Which doesn't mean a new method isn't capable of EQUALLING an old method, it just cannot be 'superior' in any form other than convenience.
Its like you carrying a pocket calculator... you can do math with paper and pencil, and in many cases, you can do it to greater precision than a digital calculator, because the CALCULATOR must convert to binary, which includes ROUNDING, while a human (because they are naturally ANALOG) can easily work with fractions that are NOT roundable (like 1/3rd) and numbers which aren't RATIONAL numbers (like square root of 5).
When they bored holes through mountains, they used tools and techniques which relied on simple geometry, and utilized optical measurement of electromagnetic radiation, to prove that geometry. IMO, that was high tech...
Edited by DaveKamp - 05 Nov 2021 at 9:19am
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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BrianC
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Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Location: New York
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Posted: 05 Nov 2021 at 9:45am |
Any use for a plumb bob here? How to get them steady when it is windy? I watched the neighbor's surveyor hack through brush and briars and ticks. I don't know about mountain work, winter also, yikes.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 05 Nov 2021 at 11:05am |
new house built nextdoor ( yeh, contractors....) The builders use them fancy computerized transits( whatever they're called).. .form and pour the house with attached garage... week later farmers come.. use a chalk line to layout the sills.... entire house isn't SQUARE and the garage wall is off 'just' 6 friggin INCHES in 22'.. heck even me, the '4 eyed nosey neighbour' could SEE that wasn't even close to being straight and parallel to the house wall....
as for plumbob.... heavier is better and areodynamically shaped. Friend 'redid' his, added a small 'thrust washer' setup so next to no interaction between the string and the plumbob.
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 05 Nov 2021 at 11:39am |
I use a plumb-bob, and wind is NOT a critical issue... a plumb-bob is a pendulum, and as such, it swings at a frequency determined by the distance from the hanging point (just like a clock), to the bob's center of gravity.
When a plumb bob swings, finding the centerpoint is not difficult- just watch it swing, and mark the extents. Draw a line between the two, and mark the center. The other way, is to dampen the swing by allowing it to drag a smidgen 'till it settles down.
If it's a constant wind, and you're concerned with lateral drift from that breeze, just pull it out, and let it swing. It will swing in all directions, mark the extents in all directions. With a constant wind, the extents will form an oval, as the wind only affects one plane, right? The oval will be widest at plane 90 degrees to the wind. Draw a line through the widest point, mark the center. Now measure the RADIUS of that centerpoint, and rotate it 90 degrees, and mark the upwind, and downwind side. You'll see that the markpoint is SHORTER on the downwind side, and LONGER on the upwind side. This distance will be equal on both sides, and is the total distance of wind-drift. Measure that distance, and mark a point that distance INTO the wind, from your centerpoint.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 05 Nov 2021 at 11:42am |
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In Jay's example, being off 6" on 22ft demonstrates a constructor's incredible lack of a piece of string... stretch across two opposing corners, mark the string, repeat for the opposite, and one clearly sees the error. Whoever was sent to lay out that build, flunked the most important stuff...
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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steve(ill)
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Location: illinois
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Posted: 05 Nov 2021 at 11:48am |
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ANY machine / tool is only as ACCURATE as the idiot that is using it.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Dusty MI
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Posted: 05 Nov 2021 at 12:37pm |
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I like to hang a plumb bob into a bucket of water, gets rid of any swing.
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917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express"
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Les Kerf
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Joined: 08 May 2020
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Posted: 06 Nov 2021 at 9:31am |
DaveKamp wrote:
To drill a hole from both sides, start by standing on TOP of the mountain, and look at the approach and departure point on each side. MOVE to a point directly ABOVE where the tunnel will pass. From there, set your transit...
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Thank you for your excellent description of this process, it makes perfect sense to me. I'm still wondering how this was done 2800+ years ago 
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 06 Nov 2021 at 3:36pm |
Les... i still want to know how the made 10 ton rock BLOCKS... then stacked them on top of each other to build a pyramid ! 
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 07 Nov 2021 at 9:49pm |
Les Kerf wrote:
Thank you for your excellent description of this process, it makes perfect sense to me. I'm still wondering how this was done 2800+ years ago
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Same way, they just didn't have magnification using lenses, they just used sticks and drew lines on the ground. They used a torch, instead of a lantern, and again, started small, and opened it up once through.
Cutting large stones... there's LOTS of technology that is somewhat forgotten by today's standards, but there's some parts still used. Here's ONE of the techniques, and it's still a common process, but using modern materials:
Weave a piece of rope. Back then, they used common rope... sisal, manila, or hemp... dipped in whatever sticky, gummy material they could find (tree sap was popular, but natural surface tar too), and then they rolled the sticky rope in pumice or other type of crushed lava.
Lay the rope across an area of stone to be cut. Pull the rope back and forth, and dribble water on it. It will cut through most stone very well. Another way to do it, is to make a treadwheel, and make the rope endless, wrapping around the treadwheel exterior. Walkers (human or animal) inside the drum provide power to pull the rope out to a return pulley, then across the stone, like a giant chain-saw, but using the abrasive rope.
The cut is very straight, because the rope is ALWAYS taut (if it wasn't, it wouldn't cut!).
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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