This site is not affiliated with AGCO Inc., Duluth GA., Allis-Chalmers Co., Milwaukee, WI., or any surviving or related corporate entity. All trademarks remain the property of their respective owners. All information presented herein should be considered the result of an un-moderated public forum with no responsibility for its accuracy or usability assumed by the users and sponsors of this site or any corporate entity. | ||||||
The Forum | Parts and Services | Unofficial Allis Store | Tractor Shows | Serial Numbers | History |
Operator ignorance & how do you fix the damage |
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Author | |
Nathan (SD)
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Day County SD Points: 1242 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Posted: 26 Mar 2023 at 8:44am |
Get your drawbar hole to 16 inches from the end of the PTO shaft. Technically not spec but it will solve your problem. Gives you more clearance back by the gearbox and moves the pivot point closer to the u-joint in front.
|
|
Sponsored Links | |
rw
Silver Level Joined: 28 Oct 2009 Location: United States Points: 378 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
The long shaft that telescopes has to be really slick to slide with torque like mowing around a corner.
Another experience i had with a sliding shaft was wear on the corners of the square shaft at the standard operating length. If the corners are rounded over and they have torque applied they bind as they try to slip into the squarer part of the tube. Creates a wedge. This happened to our 5 foot three point cutter. We mowed a gazillion acres of pasture and the shaft was really worn bad. Replaced inner and outer shaft problem solved.
|
|
brkfldj
Bronze Level Joined: 13 May 2010 Location: Sharpsburg, MD Points: 166 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
UPDATE: removal of the Woods Mower driven shaft was straight forward because of the council of you forum members. I used my Dremel with a cylindrical, chainsaw sharpening, grind stone. The burrs on the end of the PTO shaft were the source of my inability to remove the Wood’s driven shaft. A few minutes with the Dremel and the shaft was removed.
There was no problem with the release button. Thanks to all. Jim [IMG] |
|
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ——— Ben Franklin
|
|
garden_guy
Orange Level Joined: 05 Jul 2013 Location: Illinois Points: 1119 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Very interesting math on the movement for turns... I really should make a note of how tight I can turn my WD with the 6' AC 172 mower behind it... There's some "play" in the side to side of the shaft so I think it lets me get away with more than it should.
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 77909 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
as the pto outer tube is 38 inches long, i would guess the SQUARE shaft is 24 - 30 inches... Thats why i said last week that it would be "NICE" if there was 12 inches of shaft showing... Outer tube would be better at 32 inches instead of 38.......
Could be " cut and weld", but thats some work and depends on your welding ability ... and yes, the square end has to be ALIGNED with the yoke end if it is cut.... 45 degree angle is not much of a turn, but could be done... apparently you have been doing that prior to the OOOPS..
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
Tbone95
Orange Level Access Joined: 31 Aug 2012 Location: Michigan Points: 11399 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Can't say for sure without hopping on his tractor and mowing on his job, but 45 degrees sure sounds very unrealistic for a sharp turn limit.
Unhook your PTO, drive the tractor and turn very sharp, like your rear tire about to interfere, and stop and take the measurements on your PTO to see if you can shorten it up that much, and still be engaged properly when straight.
|
|
jaybmiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Greensville,Ont Points: 21515 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Maybe Santa will bring you a BIG pile of wood chips/mulch, so you can landscape those 'tight corner' areas into more gentle swoops ? Neighbour had a similar 'grass cutting' problem. I suggested making a flower garden out of the trouble area, naturally I got the 'grr another *&^^* garden to deal with ??!!' but he did make it. Turned into a real nice display and a simple, single,fast troublefree pass with the mower. Options, always try to find the ones that make YOUR life easier !
|
|
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
|
SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8021 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I'd have to go measure it but I'm sure my Woods has more shaft exposed than that one. Pull shaft apart and see how much is sticking in slip. If its only just fully engaged in slip while straight you're screwed. If plenty cut slip at weld and shorten front piece a couple inches and reweld. KEEP IT IN TIME!!! Then you can turn so short your tire catches shield and buckles it up but you won't jam the shaft into the tractor.
|
|
brkfldj
Bronze Level Joined: 13 May 2010 Location: Sharpsburg, MD Points: 166 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Thanks steve(ill). I was mowing as tight as possible around cedar clumps that tend to take over at the rock outcrops in the field. I have no idea of the degrees created by my turns, but the turns were too tight for the mower drive line.
Jim |
|
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ——— Ben Franklin
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 77909 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Jim, i just sketched it out on graph paper.. Assume you have 14 inches from the support bearing to the hitch pin and 14 inches from the pin to the PTO support bearing (tower) ... 28 inches total..
When you turn 45 degrees on the tractor, that 28 inches becomes 26 inches, so the PTO SHAFT moves 2 inches backward toward the gearbox.. Still clearance. When you turn 60 degrees on the tractor, that 28 inches becomes 24.5 inches so the PTO move 3.5 inches backtoward the gearbox ..... and you will bind... anything over 60 degree turn gets REAL BAD, REAL QUICK !! Probably OK if you limit your "TURNS" to 45 degrees...
Edited by steve(ill) - 20 Dec 2022 at 8:48pm |
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
brkfldj
Bronze Level Joined: 13 May 2010 Location: Sharpsburg, MD Points: 166 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
The thread has morphed into, 1) how to disconnect the mower shaft, and 2) is the drive line correct.
1) I pushed the driven yoke to the tractor and cleaned the exposed end of the tractor’s shaft. There is a burr or two to grind away. 2)The mower drive line looks “normal”, for what that is worth. With the tractor and mower on a flat floor there is 3 3/8” of available male shaft to receive the movement of the outer shaft during a tight turn. I haven’t researched correct dimensions. Corrections and evaluations are on hold for a while. Merry Christmas. Jim |
|
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ——— Ben Franklin
|
|
tadams(OH)
Orange Level Access Joined: 17 Sep 2009 Location: Jeromesville, O Points: 9670 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
The problem might be the drawbar or lack of. Is the hitch that's on that CA the same length as the stock drawbar or is it shorter?
|
|
Gary
Orange Level Access Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Peterborough,On Points: 5175 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I believe the male shaft and female tube are shaped so that they only go together one way. This Video at around 2.20 illustrates that. G https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qGE7QgEzm0 |
|
Dirt Farmer
Silver Level Access Joined: 15 Sep 2020 Location: Illinois Points: 286 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Is there an outside chance that the u joint was replaced on one end or the other and when sliding the shafts back together they were off by 90 degrees putting the joints out of alignment. Just a thought
|
|
DaveKamp
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5642 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
So, U-joint yoke bind occurs as a result of the Ujoint being asked to negotiate an angle past it's geometric clearance. The position of the two U-joints being centered on either side of the pivot axis basically makes the total turn angle divide equally between the two... meaning, a 45 degree angle between PTO shaft and the mower's slip shaft is evenly split at 22.5 degrees per joint. Changing this relationship makes it so that one joint will be moving a tighter angle than the other, thus, not taking full advantage of the pair. But the one thing about Steve's note here... is the slipshaft. IF... IF there's a bend, kink, or otherwise obstruction in that slipshaft outer (and it happens that they get torqued and twisted on occasion), then that end of the slipshaft will no longer accept the inner, thus, it is effectively SHORTENED. You clearly made too tight a turn for the circumstances, but I think Steve's suggestion is that it SHOULD have been able to allow more... PERHAPS that reason, is that the slipshaft go to full depth travel. Besides being kinked/twisted/torqued, some of the OTHER things that'll prevent a slipshaft from fully collapsing... is embedded debris, or grease (fresh, but also especially saponified). So that's a good thing to check. Another note- you've got a C-clamp on that detent pin. You MIGHT have it forced too FAR in, to release. The pin is usually relieved in a radius to clear the splines through the cut, but if you push it too far, it's same as not enough. Back the clamp off, and work the joint a bit more by hand, and feel that detent, mebbie between that and a little light dressing of the gunge-out malling, it'll come off nicely.
|
|
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
|
|
DiyDave
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Gambrills, MD Points: 50602 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Did I hear a request? |
|
Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need!
|
|
exSW
Orange Level Joined: 21 Jul 2017 Location: Pennsylvania Points: 914 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
If you have a weak keeper on the pto yoke it can happen. My son did the same exact thing with the WD and the manure spreader a couple months back. It jumped the detent and the pto shaft end got chewed up by the bottom of the yoke. Cleaned it up with a carbide bit in a Fordam handset.
|
|
Learning AC...slowly
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 77909 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Jim, i would agree you could turn a CA REAL QUICK and possibly get things in a bind... my only concern was you said the square slip shaft BEHIND the tower might have bottomed out on the gear case.. The tower should be able to TIP BACK several inches as shown in the above photo...... But i agree, it MIGHT be possible to turn quick and get the FRONT shaft in i bind if the PUSH on the tower is sideways and dont allow it to move BACK toward the gear box ??? BUT... you should have square shaft showing at the gear box end. ??
Edited by steve(ill) - 16 Dec 2022 at 12:47pm |
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8021 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Frame it however you want...your coupled too short. The drive line should never be able to bottom out at maximum travel possible.
|
|
brkfldj
Bronze Level Joined: 13 May 2010 Location: Sharpsburg, MD Points: 166 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
The mower is a Woods Cadet 60. The drive line is like the internet picture posted. The tower moves easily and I expect that the drive line is original.
Operator error. The small tires on the CA allow a very tight turn without contacting any of the hitch. |
|
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ——— Ben Franklin
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 77909 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Jim... here is a photo off the internet of the mower with the PTO shaft off of the tractor. Note that THE TOWER IS TILTED BACKWARD several inches toward the gear box.. The rear shaft that is square should SLIDE EASILY several inches backward as you take the pto shaft off the tractor....
When you connect the mower to the hitch, you should have to PULL THE PTO shaft several inches forward to connect to the tractor shaft... If you dont have enough clearance, the rear shaft is too long .... you could possibly extend the drawbar so the PTO is further from the mower, but your 14 inch dimension of pto to hitch is correct .. Jim said...I disengaged the pto, turned sharp and dismounted to inspect. The forward fixed shaft was tight against the tractor and the telescoping rear shaft was bound against the mower transmission.... YEA... thats not how it was designed.. Something has changed ??? Edited by steve(ill) - 16 Dec 2022 at 9:33am |
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 77909 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
steve(ill) wrote: ... My idea was the front shaft is TOO SHORT and should be a couple feet LONGER and the TOWER mount back further on the hitch.. Then when you turn a corner, the ANGLE in the shaft would be much reduced NO.. that would make things worse.. I was considering to move the tower BACK toward the mower and make the front shaft LONGER so it does not create such and angle when you turn.. Right now, MY front shaft is about 24 inches FIXED and the back shaft is over 4 ft and has the slip square drive... I considered redesigned the tower with a 3 ft front shaft for LESS ANGLE when you turn.. FURTHER FROM THE HITCH.. BUT.. their original design was to have the hitch half way between the tractor PTO shaft and the TOWER to keep the angle at both ends the same when you turn.. JIM.... when you look at the PTO shaft, your TOWER should be basically VERTICAL position , the front shaft is FIXED and the rear shaft to the gear box should have 12 inches ( or so) of the square shaft showing... That gives you plenty of room for the shaft to EXTEND forward or backward as you turn or go over a hill. If you only have an inch or two of the SQUARE shaft showing, it will bind in a quick turn..... other than that, the PIVOT for the tower has to be lubed so it will move freely, and the Square drive shaft at the gear box needs to be oiled up good for freedom of movement.
Edited by steve(ill) - 16 Dec 2022 at 9:25am |
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
brkfldj
Bronze Level Joined: 13 May 2010 Location: Sharpsburg, MD Points: 166 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Originally, my thinking was that the problem was the push button, lock-in-place pin. But I expect that the burrs are the issue.
AaronSEIA - I think you are right about the C clamp. Currently, the yoke doesn’t slide to the rear far enough to make contact with the wear spot shown in my photo. DaveKamp - Thank you for the warning to not abuse the cast iron AND for the laugh from the vision of the cow bell on a pole. I would have benefitted from that innovation at the age of 12…. D14 & side delivery rake, too fast, too sharp, through a runoff swale. SteveM C/IL - I am a world class procrastinator. I bought the tractor with the # 5 mower already in place, but would like to remove the sickle mower and install a factory hitch. That requires identifying and purchasing the needed parts. So most likely the hitch will remain as is and I will discipline myself to wider turns. I’ll update after I work on it. Thanks. Jim |
|
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ——— Ben Franklin
|
|
SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8021 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Grandpa came up with great idea for a warning system.
|
|
DaveKamp
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5642 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
Which brings up a silly note- My earliest tractor work was Grandpa putting me to task with the hay rake. He had a cane fishing pole with a cowbell on it, and he lashed it to the offset boom of the hayrake, and positioned it so that if I started approaching the 'too tight' turn, that cowbell would contact the tire, and the V-lugs would ring it like a Christover Walken on a Saturday Night Live skit... So next time you head to the field, remember- More Cowbell!!
Edited by DaveKamp - 16 Dec 2022 at 6:27am |
|
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
|
|
DaveKamp
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5642 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I believe what you're suggesting, is to move the pivot point to a spot directly above the hitch pivot, and while that seems sensible, you can't do that... The geometry as they have it now, divides ANY angle of turn by two, and evenly distributes that angle between the two joints of the shaft. If you move the pivot point back to directly above the hitch pin, ALL the angle will go into just one joint, and you'll bottom out the yoke in only half the turn angle. Also keep in mind that the pivot that occurs at this point, is not just on one plane, it's on three... the tractor and mower conform to undulations independantly, so there's pitch and roll, as well as yaw. To get it loose, a dremel and about four very-full cups of patience. The bit I would choose is the coarse cylindrical type used for sharpening chainsaws- it'll have the reach, the right grit, and they're wonderfully inexpensive in bag-of-ten quantities. Last time I had a PTO shaft extraction, the poor feller had 'balled up' the tube, so I knocked apart the yoke, then used a hook attached to my slide-hammer to rap it out. If you do same, be gentle and patient, as the cast iron backends usually aren't really thick, as they don't generally take any load that way... a harsh beating there can break castings if you're not careful. Rap a few times, then knock it back, and look for wear-signs, they'll tell you where to touch it up.
|
|
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
|
|
AaronSEIA
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Mt Pleasant, IA Points: 2533 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
It sure looks to me like the wear part in your picture actually made a burr that is keeping the yoke from sliding off the splines. Like suggested, you may need too get a small die grinder and grind the splines back to the correct profile. Also, that C-clamp may be holding the release button in too far and actually re-locking the pin. Sometimes it's gotta be left "out" an 1/8-1/4". AaronSEIA
|
|
SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8021 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
....so are you going to lengthen your hitch an inch or shorten you shaft?
|
|
brkfldj
Bronze Level Joined: 13 May 2010 Location: Sharpsburg, MD Points: 166 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
[QUOTE=DiyDave] Ah yes, the price of ignorance is the cost of education....
There is no ending in site to the cost of my education. STEVE(ill), your description of the tower pivot and the fixed length forward shaft is spot on. When I suspected operator error, I disengaged the pto, turned sharp and dismounted to inspect. The forward fixed shaft was tight against the tractor and the telescoping rear shaft was bound against the mower transmission. The general consensus is to debur the tractor pto shaft. I’ll let you know how the process goes. Thanks for the council. Jim |
|
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ——— Ben Franklin
|
|
SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8021 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I'm wondering what shape your sliding section of shaft is like. Is it well lubed and slips in and out easily? Doesn't the shaft get shorter on a turn? I'm wondering if slip is bottoming out on tight turn. On my Woods 72 single my WD45 can turn till the tire hits the driveline shield and never bottom out.
|
|
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |