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Broken Camshaft |
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mikeks
Bronze Level Joined: 08 Mar 2017 Location: Kansas Points: 22 |
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Posted: 14 Mar 2020 at 4:12pm |
I have an Allis 180 Diesel B2800 engine. I bought it 3 years ago with a small chatter in the front of the motor. The seller gave me a camshaft gear and said it was possibly worn or missing some teeth. Long story short. Noise was minimal and never got done. Mostly used for bailing hay and around the farm.
I was using the loader to pick up the front end to change a tire, rattle clatter bang and the engine shut down. After tear down the end of the camshaft had snapped off, gear busted through the case. Nothing appears wrong with the gear, minus the chunk of camshaft stuck in it! Not afraid to replace parts, but I don’t know how to tell what caused it to break in the first place. I have read a little about the hydraulic pump dead locking and causing it? Wasn’t a lot of detail to it. Any suggestions where to find what cause the problem? Obliviously there was a problem that I let go to far. Now that it’s to late for that, what was the root of it? Or how do I determine everything is tight when I put it back together so I don’t have the problem again. Appreciate any help.
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Lonn
Orange Level Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Location: Назарово,Russia Points: 29773 |
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My brother with his latest 190XT purchase bought the tractor with a broken cam. Got it cheap. Turned out to be the hydraulic pump had ingested a piece if steel and locked it up which broke the cam. Previous owner had it in to a former Deere dealer now independent for a new cam and gears. He didn't even make the 3 mile trip home and it broke again. The steel piece must have dropped free and then lodged again. The mechanic missed the hydraulic pump being the culprit. When my brother bought it he took it back to same mechanic and I, with info gained from the folks on this site, clued the mechanic. New pump was need along with used cam and gears.
Don't where that piece of steel originated from as the screen was in place in the sump Edited by Lonn - 14 Mar 2020 at 4:30pm |
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 19581 |
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Later engines (about 1971) had a different gear and a 4 inch long bolt that went into the camshaft and put the nose under compression making the camshaft stronger so that doesn't happen. I'm guessing yours finally snapped off from old age and fatigue. Tractors that use the hydraulics a lot had this happen.
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MACK
Orange Level Joined: 17 Nov 2009 Points: 7664 |
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Take the pump apart and inspect it for any damage or foreign matter. Remove suction pipe and clean it out for any metal. MACK
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mikeks
Bronze Level Joined: 08 Mar 2017 Location: Kansas Points: 22 |
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Thanks for the response guys. I will pull the pump and suction tube and let you know what I find. I know I can’t turn the pump by hand, not sure if I should be able to or not.
Any suggestions on where to get a camshaft and the other parts? Is something that can be ok from a salvage yard assuming the correct one could be found? Like anyone else, want to do it right but don’t want to spend a fortune. Even on buying a new one, how do I know its the correct one? Ive seen a couple that say they are for the 180 different model numbers.
Edited by mikeks - 15 Mar 2020 at 3:55pm |
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 19581 |
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You should be able to turn the pump multiple times both directions but it may require a pair of pliers to do it. If the pump has had something explode internally, sure that will break a camshaft, but I have replaced 3 or 4 broken nose camshafts over the years that had NOTHING wrong with the hydraulic pump.
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SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8030 |
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Be an excellent time to buy rebuild kit for pump and install. Double check high pressure relief pressure afterward. If it's been turned up to compensate for wear you can crack a housing. Learned that the hard way!
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im4racin
Orange Level Joined: 12 Jun 2017 Location: Garrison ND Points: 844 |
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Is there a way to tell if the cam has the said bolt without taking a bunch apart to check?
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 19581 |
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What model?? What is the chassis and engine serial number?? It was a running change.
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mikeks
Bronze Level Joined: 08 Mar 2017 Location: Kansas Points: 22 |
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Thanks again for the assistance. There are probably more contributing factors than I realize. About 6 moths ago I had a piece of metal go through the valve body for the hydraulic controls. Tore it apart, cleaned it up and went back to work. Hydraulics have worked but seemed to struggle.
Tried to turn the hydraulic pump tonight with a pair of channel locks. About a quarter turn of free play and then locked tight either direction. Found a camshaft from a salvage yard for $150 and a rebuilt hydraulic pump for $450 w/ core. Rebuild kit for the pump is around $200 haven’t looked into how hard of a job that is yet. Camshaft does/did not have the bolt. Won’t get time to tear into it to get to the camshaft just yet. Busy at work. I will be fixing the cam as well as all the gaskets, rear main seal, and hydraulic pump while its torn down. Any other suggestions. Numbers I have so far. Model 180 Diesel Engine 2800 Engine Catalog # 4021809 Engine Serial # 20-16019 Timing Gear # 4021112 Timing Cover # 4020099
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mikeks
Bronze Level Joined: 08 Mar 2017 Location: Kansas Points: 22 |
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Found a broken tooth in the pump and a ton of sludge in the tray under suction tube. Thanks
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mikeks
Bronze Level Joined: 08 Mar 2017 Location: Kansas Points: 22 |
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Found a used camshaft, gear, hydro pump, timing cover and all new seals to go with. Also rear seals and new clutch disc while I’m at it. $600 in used parts, $550 seals, gaskets and clutch.
I was using Super 303 in the trans and hydraulic and now realize that was not the best choice. If I understand correctly I can use the same trans/hydraulic in both. Is this correct? Any suggestions on a brand? |
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SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8030 |
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They both require hydraulic/wet brake oil
Edited by SteveM C/IL - 24 Mar 2020 at 8:05pm |
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Brian Jasper co. Ia
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Prairie City Ia Points: 10508 |
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Use a hydraulic/trans oil that meets Agco Allis 821 specs. That 303 is only good for oiling the screen door hinges...
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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Lonn
Orange Level Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Location: Назарово,Russia Points: 29773 |
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Was the screen in place in the sump where the suction tube connects under the tractor's belly?
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-- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... -
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mikeks
Bronze Level Joined: 08 Mar 2017 Location: Kansas Points: 22 |
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Yes the screen was in place.
The used cam I bought was for gas motor I assume. Lobes and everything look the same. Same gear. End of the shaft where the gear mounts is different and has a lobe for mechanical fuel pump. On the hunt for the correct cam now.
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Dean(IA)
Silver Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: NE Iowa Points: 424 |
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There was a service bulletin from A-C that was instructions for replacing the camshaft and gear with the camshaft part number for a 200 tractor. But, be aware, it will make the exhaust sound different because of different cam lobe timing. I had a customer ream me out after we did this repair because his 190XT didn't sound the same as before. The new part number cam has the bolt in the end to reinforce it. Often times, that 2800 or 2900 engine would have 7500 or more hours on it when the camshaft broke off. Doing an engine rebuild is a good idea, even though there is probably several thousand hours left in the rest of the engine. As a side note, we overhauled 404 diesel engines from brand X at 3500 to 4500 hours.
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Dean(IA)
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mikeks
Bronze Level Joined: 08 Mar 2017 Location: Kansas Points: 22 |
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Bought a new cam and all the other needed items. Re-assembled, and I am fairly certain the cam is 180 off. Again, not a mechanic.
Dampener TDC lines up with TDC. Tried every rotation possible. Valve appear to move opposite as they should. Cannot get them adjusted to where they wont hit the piston. Took the timing cover back off. All marks line up correctly. Injection pumps appears to be close when rotated back to approx. 24BTDC Only thing that seems off, again I don’t know. When the all of the timing marks line up, the dampener key is straight down. By what I read it should be straight up. Though I don’t see how it could be switched around and I didn’t touch the crank. It’s there a sure fire way to tell? If I simply rotate the cam so the marks are 180 off will that cause issues elsewhere?
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Brian Jasper co. Ia
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Prairie City Ia Points: 10508 |
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Sounds like you might not be using the correct marks. Dr A should be along or MACK and they will know exactly what to do.
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 19581 |
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Damper key is "UP" for TDC from what I remember. When damper key is UP the camshaft and crank gear marks should line up. They would be located at about 2 o'clock at this time. If there is another mark on the crank gear, it would be at approx. 10 o'clock and that would be for the idler gear.
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mikeks
Bronze Level Joined: 08 Mar 2017 Location: Kansas Points: 22 |
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With the single dot at 2:00 for the cam, and the double dot at 10:00 for the idler, the key for the crankshaft gear is at 12:00 and the key for the damper at 6:00.
Seems backwards from what I’ve read but I don’t see a way to reverse it. Also when orientated like this the front piston #1 is at the bottom not TDC
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Dave H (NE)
Silver Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Western NE Points: 285 |
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the key ways for the gear and damper are in line on the crank. must have sheared the key for the gear.
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SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8030 |
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DING! DING! DING! That's a real could be answer! It's even logical.
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mikeks
Bronze Level Joined: 08 Mar 2017 Location: Kansas Points: 22 |
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You guys are awesome.
That is for sure the issue. After you posted it was obvious, thanks for the wisdom! Next issue is that I have tried every method under the sun to get the crank gear off. Puller, heat, tapping, turning, you name it. No luck.
Friend of a friend restores tractors says that if I sheared the key, I likely messed up the key way hole in the crank and gear. That if I managed to get the gear off, the crank is likely damaged as well. He then suggested that is the gear is that stuck on, to leave it, account for the rotation, re-time and carry on. If it hasn’t moved to this point its not going to. Says he has done it twice as opposed to new gear and likely a new crank with no problems. Now I can see all the what if’s of if were to happen to move after I get it running and that scares the tar out of me. But.... I can only sink so much money in this old tractor...... Have any wisdom on this situation? Edited by mikeks - 13 Apr 2020 at 7:54am |
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 19581 |
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Bad idea. If you KNEW that it has rotated EXACTLY 180 degrees that would be one thing. You don't know that, and the odds of it being exactly that are extremely slim. Rotating the crankshaft so the keyway in the gear is straight down and removing the front main cap might gain you some access to grinding or cutting thru the gear into the keyway so the press fit will be negated and then it will pull off. Contamination control is key here, taping and covering things up to keep debris out of important places.
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ac fleet
Orange Level Joined: 12 Jan 2014 Location: Arrowsmith, ILL Points: 2215 |
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IF the key sheared, the crank more than likely is not hurt any, as key would be a tad bit softer than crank and gear. I would start cutting the old gear off carefully. ---it will be slow job but after cutting in a ways it should release its grip. part of the key is wedged between the shaft and gear itself----kinda like welded together so you have to relieve the pressure between them.
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http://machinebuildersnetwork.com/
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mikeks
Bronze Level Joined: 08 Mar 2017 Location: Kansas Points: 22 |
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Once again, thank you everyone for your help! I am far from a mechanic, but the engine runs smooth as can be again. Couldn’t of done it with out the assistance. Ended up cutting off the crank gear. Bought a used crank gear, cam gear, hydraulic pump, new cam, new clutch and all the necassary gaskets and seals. All is well again on the front of the tractor.
That being said, my issues with the high/low are still there. I took some advice from this page and others. Flushed everybit of hydro fluid and trans fluid I was able to. Clean out the sump and screen and the valve directly under the high/low shifter. Was hoping I would get lucky. I still have some testing and trouble shooting to figure out, but I’m assuming it the power director clutches. Low: all gears work, slips very little until you pull up the RPM’s. High: tries to grab very little, might move it a little in 1st high on flat ground. Rattling/clunking from the drive train area. Ill update when I make it there. For now, I need a break from it for a few days!
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