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WD45 Engine Diagnosis Needed - UPDATE Nov 3

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Dave(inMA) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave(inMA) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: WD45 Engine Diagnosis Needed - UPDATE Nov 3
    Posted: 25 Oct 2016 at 1:15pm
The engine in my WD45 has run roughly since it came to live in my barn. Here's a video - fast idle initially, then at higher rpms: [TUBE]meT23XhY1NQ[/TUBE]. [Oddly, the engine sounds better in the video than in real life!]

The roughness is more noticeable at higher rpm. Perhaps related to this, there is a small amount of oil leaking at the head gasket above #1 (mostly) and #2 spark plugs. I've pulled all four plugs - there's oil in the threads of #1 and all four are a sooty color, worst at #1 and lightening toward #4.

I've adjusted the high speed jet to the smoothest running spot. Carb seemed clean inside. Also checked to make sure that the choke was fully open.

So maybe valve guides? Some other carb issue?

Thanks for any suggestions!
Dave


Edited by Dave(inMA) - 03 Nov 2016 at 5:10pm
WC, CA, D14, WD45
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Stan IL&TN View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stan IL&TN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2016 at 2:20pm
I don't hear much of a problem but you may want to do a compression test to see how close all the cylinders are to each other.
1957 WD45 dad's first AC

1968 one-seventy

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2016 at 2:22pm
After a good compression test, throw away all those old plug wires and get real wire, not carbon core wires.
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Dave(inMA) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave(inMA) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2016 at 2:41pm
Thanks......I'll do both! Won't get to it until next week due to travel schedule.
WC, CA, D14, WD45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HD6GTOM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2016 at 3:03pm
Dave when I fires overhauled mine 30+ years ago, I couldn't wait to get it running. I put the carbon wires on it and fooled with it for a week. boys at R&M equitment told me the same thing-- throw away the carbon and go to copper.   
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Dave(inMA) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave(inMA) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2016 at 4:14pm
I hope the copper wires help - honestly hadn't thought of that as a cause but it surely could be. Will report back!
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DiyDave View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DiyDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2016 at 6:06pm
And, Check the dist cap out, too, looks kinda old, could have some carbon tracking...
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Dmpaul89 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dmpaul89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2016 at 6:35pm
mine runs loud too. i wear ear muffs when i use it. not talking about the exhaust either. even the gears are loud. i think thats just how they are!
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Dave(inMA) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave(inMA) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2016 at 6:55pm
Just turn down the audio and it'll run quieter! Tongue 

I'll re-check the distributor cap as well, though it LOOKED okay when I was going through a few things. Might be smart to replace all that stuff given that I have no idea when they were installed in the old girl.
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WDDave View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WDDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2016 at 7:43pm
My WD sounds exactly the same at idle or low load.
I was checking compression ,ignition,carb rebuilt,new intake manifold ect. but never really found a problem.
   When it gets under a load and the governor opens up all that goes away and it pulls strong so I quit worrying about it.
   
WD ,wide front, with loader
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Dave(inMA) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave(inMA) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2016 at 8:01pm
Ah. The infamous 'no discoverable cause' outcome. Censored

Any suggestions on why there's oil on the #1 plug threads?
WC, CA, D14, WD45
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Gerald J. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerald J. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2016 at 8:33pm
Is it distributor or magneto? Distributor should have a working centrifugal advance so the ignition timing is retarded for idle speed and advanced for full load speed. If its stuck advanced which seems to be typical for an old engine because of springs rusted off or lack of lubrication (a few drops of oil into the felt in the hollow shaft under the distributor rotor every few months) it will knock at idle but run good at full speed. If its stuck retarded, it will run smooth at all speeds but not have anywhere near rated power at full speed and the exhaust will run hot at full speed. That can burn the exhaust valves.

Check with the distributor cap off. Turn the rotor in the direction it turns with the engine running and it should allow some motion and snap back when released. If not its time for more work deep in the distributor.

Oil on spark plug threads could be from oil in the cylinder from worn piston rings or intake valve guide but it should be showing blue smoke in the exhaust from burning oil, or it could come from a leaking rocker cover gasket dripping oil down the side of the head at the plug. Leaky rocker cover gaskets come with overhead valve engines, sometimes even new ones.

Gerald J.
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Dave(inMA) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave(inMA) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2016 at 8:37pm
It's a distributor. Will add checking the advance to the list....I need to take this tractor to some place where I can put the hammer down - no chance to see what happens under a good load here at my place! I'll also check the rocker cover gasket - I'm not seeing any blue smoke. 

Edited by Dave(inMA) - 25 Oct 2016 at 8:39pm
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WF owner View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WF owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2016 at 9:34am
... and if you are using Champion spark plugs, replace them!
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Allen Dilg View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Allen Dilg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2016 at 10:46am
Hello Dave  Can you change anything by chocking it??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2016 at 2:03pm
I would also say start with basics. Fresh plugs with correct gap set, and I have had the issue with wires too. Like others said make sure they are the copper solid core and not suppression core as the suppression core just adds resistance for the modern electronics you don't have to worry about on old tractors. They need all the current the ignition system has. I also agree with checking the cap and and rotor for wear or corrosion. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigredisb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2016 at 2:22pm
Best place to start on any good tune up or diagnosis is a compression test. If the compression test results are unfavorable then move to a leakdown test to determine where the leakage is.

If your tests are good then its worth putting some money in plugs, plug wires and so on. If the test is negative then save your money for the larger repair needed that you would have discovered with a leakdown test.

If your compression tests are good and balanced I personally go to a temp gun on each exhaust port to see if you have any radical differences in outlet temp (can be tricky on tractor exhaust manifolds to isolate each cylinder). If you do have certain cylinder higher than others I test for vacuum leaks around the intake to head ports by using carb cleaner while its running.

Lets face it, these old tractors have a lot of hours on them and most likely the oil you are seeing is from the rings letting oil past which isn't always a bad thing. When we build older engines that are running todays gas we like to see the valve stem to guide clearance a little more open to prevent valves from sticking due to the higher combustion temps with todays gas.

Edited by bigredisb - 26 Oct 2016 at 2:23pm
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Dave(inMA) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave(inMA) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2016 at 4:29pm
Thanks for all the advice. I'll dig into this when I get back to Massachusetts.

What plugs are best to use?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian Jasper co. Ia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2016 at 4:45pm
Carbon wires are not your problem unless they are actually faulty. I have a set of BWD carbon wires on my CA. They've been on there nearly 20 years. My Oliver 60 has them too. They've been on it 9 years. Don't waste your money on the elcheapo wires from fleet farm stores. Buy a quality set like Taylor Cable. You can get a universal cut to length set from Summit or Jeg's. Taylor Spiro Pro would be about the last set of wires the tractor will ever need and they aren't all that expensive. Pitch the Champion plugs and go to AC Delco, NGK, or Autolite.
What kind of shape is the distributor in? If the shaft is loose in the bushing, your Dwell and timing will not be consistent. Remember when you check the timing to do it at full speed. That's when the fire line should be centered in the window. Over advanced from setting timing at idle speed will make them run bad.
"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2016 at 5:42pm
They way it sounds to me, I would do a regular tune up, make sure it has fresh gas and add a half can of Sea Foam, put a 53 SC plow behind it and work the pi$$ out of it for a day .  You might need 10 or 15 acres for that Big smile
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Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF
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Dave(inMA) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave(inMA) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2016 at 7:10pm
Thanks, guys. I'm hoping that some TLC maintenance will get her running better - and I'd like nothing better than to hook my SC plow (sadly only 2 bottoms) on her and plow a good sized piece. We need a major plow day around here!

Dave
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WF owner View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WF owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2016 at 7:41pm
You have received a lot of good suggestions.

Have you checked the inlet or screen of your sediment bowl, to make sure it isn't partially plugged?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robacpuller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2016 at 7:59pm
What about the air cleaner, make sure it's breathing
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robacpuller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2016 at 8:01pm
Put a pertronix electric ignition in, your problems will b solved.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AC720Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2016 at 8:01pm
I would also add some Seafoam to the crank case. Not sure how recent of a oil change you have, but if you haven't changed it remove enough oil from the crank case to allow you to add Seafoam in it's place. Instructions are on the can for dosage. Seafoam has done some increadable results for me in several engines that I have worked on. It cleans the engine, removes condensation, loosens and cleans piston rings, pistons, valves, valve guides.....and more. i bought a non running 720 a few years back. Once I made repairs to get it running, it puffed blue smoke worse than chain smoker and only got worse after 5 minutes. I removed some of the new oil and added Seafoam. Within 4 minutes of 3/4 throttle running , smoke was barely visable. After 15 minutes it was gone. I drained the oil and it was deep black. Put fresh oil in with more Seafoam and ran it off and on for 2 weeks. Drained and added fresh oil only. It not only stopped the smoking, compression increased in each cylinder and is close to being even. It runs great and uses no oil.
1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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Dave(inMA) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave(inMA) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2016 at 9:30pm
Thanks to all of you.......pretty sure I've got strong fuel flow to the carb and had thoroughly cleaned the air cleaner. Replaced the missing tube from the air cleaner to the carb with no change in the way the engine runs. But both worth checking. Will add the Seafoam treatment to the list!

Dave


Edited by Dave(inMA) - 27 Oct 2016 at 2:47pm
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Dave(inMA) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave(inMA) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2016 at 5:09pm
Some updates now that I'm home for a few days:

1. The advance seems to be fine - the rotor turns 5-10 degrees and snaps back nicely.

2. There seems to be play in the dissy shaft. Not a lot, but I can feel play in the shaft when I pull on the top end of the shaft.

3. Good fuel flow to the carb.

Would a set of new bushings and  a shaft cure #2?

Thanks much! I really appreciate the help.
Dave
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DiyDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2016 at 6:43pm
I't take the dist off, and take it to a good electric rebuilder shop.  They have the tools, and equip, to do it right, and access to the parts.  If the shaft wobbles enough to close the points, its overdue...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave(inMA) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2016 at 7:22pm
I'll make that test tomorrow, DiYDave. Nice to have a standard to measure against!

Edited by Dave(inMA) - 03 Nov 2016 at 7:22pm
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