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Connecting rods |
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wi50
Orange Level Joined: 24 Sep 2010 Location: weegieland Points: 1010 |
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Posted: 17 Jan 2013 at 8:44pm |
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To save some time sending pictures and endless phone calls, here's some pictures. I've got quite a few engines in the works and keep getting a lot of questions as to what to do. Seams a lot of people want to build something, but want to do it in steps or don't need a huge engine, but might build one in the future, etc. Wanting the best bang for the buck and the ability to use parts over for future changes.
I use a lot of Farmall H and 350 rods in the 201 and 226 based engines to give a good strong rod and keep a decent rod to stroke ratio. These rods have a canted cap and clear well in the 201 engines out to abut 5.4" stroke with a bit of work, in the 226 engines they clear well at 5.5" stroke and with some block clearanceing and sleve notching 5.75" stroke. By 6" they are to tight for comfort. They use a large diameter crankpin, 2.29" for a nice strong crankshaft when done. The rods are 8" center to center, 350 rods work great for pistons with a .927 pin and H rods work well for .990 wrist pins. The H rods have a large enough wrist pin bore in the end that sometimes I weld a solid slug in them and offset bore a new hole to change the length + or - .150 and with a smaller pin can be moved .200 longer or shorter. I clearance the rods in the milling machine and then a bunch of hand work. I use a stronger rod bolt than they originally had and countersink it in the cap for added clearance. It's a bunch of work to finish out a set of take out rods into a final product. Make bushings for the end, clearance the rods, size the bores, balance, and sometimes it takes a lot to get these old rods to balance. They are soft, and if needed for the application it's a trip to the heat treater. All of this adds cost for the end user. I have a local fella makeing billet rods for me in his small CNC shop. I did my homework on material selection and grain structure for rods. I'd love to make them but I don't have a CNC or the countless time to stand by my manual machine. Though a bit more costly they sure are easier to work with. The added benefit of a narrow crankpin also makes for a stronger end product. It's easy to change the length, pin size and cap angle for clearance issues or for special applications. Here's a few pictures of some of the rods. Billet on the bottom, clearanced and reworked Farmall H, take out H and Allis 226 on top. 8" billet rod on left, reworked Farmall H on the right, notice the different cap angle used on the billet for added clearance. The H rod is actually 7.85" long instead of the original 8" length. Both use a .990" pin. I have the billet rod set up to take a H series Cleveite berring for a 2" Chevy crankpin. There's a huge selection of berrings available to interchange for the billet rod weather you want a soft or hard berring, coated, etc. Edited by wi50 - 17 Jan 2013 at 8:47pm |
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"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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AC Billy
Silver Level Joined: 27 Oct 2012 Location: Scottsburg,IN Points: 126 |
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Good stuff !
Thanks for taking the time show your work.. It says alot about your knowledge and your abilities. |
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injpumpEd
Orange Level Access Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Walnut IL Points: 4897 |
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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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Larry W.
Silver Level Joined: 07 Nov 2010 Location: Luck, WI Points: 280 |
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Ed, heat treat first, then do your finishing machine work. They distort maybe a little, I've never had any come back with any real serious distortion though. Some guys like to cryo-treat them too.
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Glockhead SWMI
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: South West Mich Points: 2657 |
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Nice!
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BRYAN H
Bronze Level Joined: 13 Oct 2011 Location: DEFOREST Points: 125 |
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WITCH ONE IS BETTER HEAT TREAT OR CRYO TREAT? |
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unstylish_
Silver Level Joined: 19 Dec 2012 Location: southwestern Mi Points: 129 |
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I'm not trying to answer for wi but I believe they are different process for different applications. But I believe heat treating of some sort is a must. It has more to do with the hardness ofvthe metal where cryo is " stress relief".
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mlpankey
Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580 |
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Wheres Rod . I though he might want to talk about large wide rod bearings and friction robing horsepower
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O.P.S. Heads
Orange Level Access Joined: 02 Jan 2013 Location: Iowa Points: 574 |
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Ed,
I know that when you send a set of rods for a 426 or a 301 to max Simpson, he puts the big end of the rod in a press and actually squashes the round hole into an oval - slightly. This sounds a little crude, but he obviously has it down to a science as far as how far to go. This is all prior to the heat treat process. Then when he gets the rods back from heat treat, the big ends are very close to being round for less machine work and material removed.
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Rod B
Orange Level Joined: 25 Jul 2011 Location: Peoria Points: 415 |
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Sure I'll teach you a thing or two on connecting rods. First lesson is to listen to those who know more than you. In this instance that would be spankey listening to everybody else. A few forum members said not to use buda rods in his engine but he did anyway. Guess what the outcome was? They were right and spankey was wrong. Bent rods rob horsepower. Useing unsuited junk in the first place causes bent rods. Being an idiot causes one to use unsuited junk. Anyone care to guess what the common denominator is? Nice job on the rods WI. spankster's jealous. Again. |
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firephight
Orange Level Joined: 16 Sep 2012 Location: st.louis Points: 320 |
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mlpankey
Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580 |
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well rod i guess we should pull the posts back up where you are arguing about rod width and bearing friction . nice job rod changing argument to be allright for wi to do but not for another builder to do . ps anytime you heat treat , cryo or just change rod bolts the rod needs to be resized. To resize the big end you simply grind the cap to reduce the journal size then bore back to original size . if the small end has been oblonged in a press the the pin bore would have to be enlarged to a larger piston pin in my thoughts.
Edited by mlpankey - 23 Jan 2013 at 9:21am |
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wi50
Orange Level Joined: 24 Sep 2010 Location: weegieland Points: 1010 |
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You were right Butch......
Ed, I just have a friend do any heat treating, he's got a large manufacturing business in town so with a scrap part for a test piece one can get the heat treat right before wrecking good parts. Nitrading, heat treateing, EDM machine, it's nice to have friends like that. Just buy a $6500 set of rods from Hyper..... they'll hold up just fine and it's as easy as makeing a phone call. Though it's probably more sensable to spend a couple hundred bucks on yours. I've seen hardened rods hold up fine, and I've seen billet ones break. A little thought and sensable design into the rest of the engine sure help with one's final outcome.
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"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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injpumpEd
Orange Level Access Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Walnut IL Points: 4897 |
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well, after much deliberation, sorry Marty, I'm sending some rods to plankie. LOL! Just kidding! I'll be getting some ready this weekend to send to you Marty. I'll need to get pin bushings ordered, and rod bolts, then they'll come your way. I have a junk rod I can send up for a "test" piece. Thanks again Marty! Ed.
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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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Butch(OH)
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Lucerne Ohio Points: 3834 |
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mlpankey
Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580 |
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I would like to know if max is just who doing like wi and rob. looks to me like oblonging the wrist pin bore in a press would be making possibly a place to fracture. sometimes you wonder if its luck and luck only that gets people on podiums
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O.P.S. Heads
Orange Level Access Joined: 02 Jan 2013 Location: Iowa Points: 574 |
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Not the wrist pin bore. I said the big end of the rod which to most folks is the end that hooks to the crankshaft. Max has been doing things like this and much more for years and years and is a smart, smart guy. He makes good stuff. Far be it for me to question anything he does.
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Glockhead SWMI
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: South West Mich Points: 2657 |
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Max Simpson was one of the reasons I bought an Allis.
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Butch(OH)
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Lucerne Ohio Points: 3834 |
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LOL
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Larry W.
Silver Level Joined: 07 Nov 2010 Location: Luck, WI Points: 280 |
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Wow, now max is only lucky? Just when I thought I have read the most ridiculous statements ever, a new one flys in from the south!
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mlpankey
Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580 |
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hmm the big end i gues i didnt read well . Most rods bearings come with the clearance tighter at top and bottom 12 and 6 oclok than they are at the split . The bearing halves at the split usually are a half to a thousandths more clearance than the top and bottom to keep rod from getting tight on the sides when going through stretch and compression of running. In other words the bearing are oblong by design for a reason.
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mlpankey
Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580 |
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So in knowing the bearings are oblong by design why would you oblong the circular big end of a rod. In my opinion thats a who do job
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O.P.S. Heads
Orange Level Access Joined: 02 Jan 2013 Location: Iowa Points: 574 |
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OK I'm going to go through this again: The rods are squashed (slightly) prior to the heat treat process. The heat treat process happens and brings the oval hole close to being back to round. Then both ends of the rod are machined to a perfect circle - just like factory. The idea for the pre - distortion of the rod is so it ends up closer to a round hole after the heat treatment process so less machine work is done to get it to a perfect circle. Max understands it completely. We have had a few sets of 301 rods done by him and two set of 426 rods done with zero issues.
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mlpankey
Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Vols country Points: 4580 |
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Flame hardening the rod should make the circle smaller so you can bore it back to standard without oblonging it in a press that could possibly cause a unseen stres crack.inmho
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ALLISMAN32
Bronze Level Joined: 13 Mar 2011 Location: Hillsboro, IN Points: 199 |
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So on a 426 at what power level does one need to consider having the rods hardened, or is it more dependent on engine speed that could cause a failure?
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O.P.S. Heads
Orange Level Access Joined: 02 Jan 2013 Location: Iowa Points: 574 |
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My first post was really for Ed. He was talking about hardened 426 rods so I thought I would chime in. I sure as hell don't know it all and never claimed to, but Max Simpson probably does. He explained his process to me on the phone and it has worked well for us. Looking back on it all I should have just emailed Ed directly.
Pankenstein, I have been a member on this board for about three weeks. I had read it many times prior to being a member and enjoyed most of the posts. I use to think some of the boys were just pickin on you, but it's obvious you have it coming. Damn boy, you need to tune in more and broadcast less. Make your rods however you want to. But for you to second guess a guy (Max) who has made more power than you could possibly conceive ( most recent - 5 consecutive time SSD NTPA champ - 426 block ) is just dumb.
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 20398 |
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Over 50 pounds of boost and you're asking for trouble most of the time. They will bend/crush the beam from too much pressure.
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Butch(OH)
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Lucerne Ohio Points: 3834 |
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Gee O.P.S. You obviously didn't read his post last month about being the smartest person on these forums!
Pay proper respect!
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EricSWPA
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: PA Points: 292 |
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I'm just learning a lot of this stuff but if nothing else I do get a lot of laughs from these arguments. We have a guy at work who will give you a answer one day and the next say he never said that does it remind you of anyone. Lol
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mufflerboltz
Orange Level Joined: 03 Oct 2012 Location: New Glarus, Wi Points: 371 |
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i my self have never seen an oblong bearing, I have noticed that upon removing them form a rod they stick to the side of the rod but once inserted in the rod end they are and should be a perfect circle! if they were not a person would eventually end up with on h@ll of a rod Knock!
Im not saying i know everything about building motors, but i can dang well say i self taught myself and know how to read a mic to make sure i don't have weird clearances like that! I have probably built ( cant really remember exact number) 20-25 engines, all the way from single cylinders, car/truck, and diesel engines and NEVER had one blow/seize up! If we are going to oblong rod holes and such likes also egg shape the crank, should run like one huge vibrator until she blows!
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