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Vertical Tillage

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Ryan Renko View Drop Down
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    Posted: 25 Oct 2011 at 6:57pm

Do any off you all practice this?? Our renter just went through our been stubble with a great plains 3000TT and was "going to town". What are the benefits and overall comments about it. Ryan

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Byron WC in SW Wi View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byron WC in SW Wi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2011 at 8:20pm
I'm not an expert but there is no real answer for every farm.  Vertical tillage, no-till, max-till, min-till all have their place.  IMO vertical tillage works in places where you can use GPS and till only where you plant.  Where you use heavy equipment that compacts the soil and vertical tillage will break through that compaction.  And, where you have lots of top soil as at my place I have lots of very big rocks not too far underground.  
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Ryan Renko View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ryan Renko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2011 at 8:28pm
It seems like with those narrow coulters in front and the rolling harrow spikes in the back you really dont disrupt the soil much. Ryan
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Dave in il View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave in il Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2011 at 9:25pm
The idea is to reduce compaction and not to destroy crop residue to control erosion.
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Steve M C/IL View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve M C/IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2011 at 10:46pm
Seems to be latest fad.Two neighbors jumped right on it! I'm not convinced but who am I? I think they all "belive" just because you can go like *&%# across the field!! It's gotta work! RIGHT????
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Rawleigh View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rawleigh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2011 at 7:54am
The idea is to get a little dirt stirred up to make the residue degrade while not changing the soil structure or tilthe.

Edited by Rawleigh - 26 Oct 2011 at 7:54am
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AllisUpstate View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AllisUpstate Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2011 at 8:56am
Ryan,

I just got done reading "The Plowman's Folly" by Edward Faulkner, written (believe it or not) in 1943!  I came across it at a used book sale, and it looked interesting. It was a fascinating read!  Basically, Faulkner had the courage to ask the obvious, and simple question of why does everyone plow?  He makes the point that plants in nature gather their food from the surface from bacterial and fungal decomposition of dead plants - not from 8" down at the bottom of the plow sole.  In conventional plowing, the overturned organic layer also actually blocks the underlying moisture from making it up to the plant root zone where it is needed.  His book seems to be the beginning of the No-Till movement.  He argues that disking in residues only within the top few inches of soil offers many benefits over conventional plowing, and mimicks what nature does everyday.  He makes the point that no one ever fertilized a healthy forest, or grassland, and that nature is recycling the nutrients from decaying material at the top surface down to the roots, and not from the bottom up.  Vertical tillage is just the latest iteration of that same idea.  Anyway, it is a fascinating little book in its own right, and to think he wrote it during the middle of WWII makes it even more interesting.  
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clint View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clint Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2011 at 9:22am
uh, yeah, wow.
 
a couple of you are thinking about strip till. vertical tillage is to combat residue- you only work about the top inch or 2 of soil. think of a disk that the gangs run straight- not at an agle- and the blades are wavy and straight- not dished- several have the rolling baskets as mentioned- to level the res and mask it to the ground- so things rot faster. gps not needed
Our farms stuff: agco gt55, AA 8775, 8765, 6080, 185, 180, 175, 170, d15, d14, d14, wd, wd, wd, g, F3, L3, R62
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Ryan Renko View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ryan Renko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2011 at 9:53am
Many good points brought up in that book to really consider allisupstate.
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AllisUpstate View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AllisUpstate Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2011 at 11:46am
Ryan, I didn't mean to state the obvious, as probably most of the forum members use some type of no-till or minimum tillage.  It was just a cute little book though, and it had never occurred to me that such "revolutionary" ideas were around back then.  Apparently the book was extremely controversial when it came out.  Now, the ideas he talked about are commonplace.

Funny though, around our area (central NY) no-till is still a rarity.  Within probably 8-10 miles of us, I know of only one 10 acre corn plot done in no-till.  Virtually all the dairy farms around us still use the moldboard plow/disking for tillage.  The mid-west with its large acreages, seems to use it much more. 
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Coke-in-MN View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coke-in-MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2011 at 12:00pm
If a dairy farmer uses the manure from cows and it has not rotted well then weed seeds are a problem , with no till this residue would be at ground surface and weeds may become a problem . If turned over and is at bottom of 8" less weed problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SHAMELESS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2011 at 1:44am
i have been "testing" no-till for years....in different types of soil! if you have good black soil it will work better than lighter soils, it may work great the first year or 2, but will start to die out after that unless you keep uping the amount of commercial fertilizer each year! last year i "ripped" part of the farm, it had never had that done in it's life! the corn grew great! i also put corn in after beans, no till, no fertilizer, that yieded average then next to it, i appied fertilizer, it helped some, but next to that where i had plowed the bean field, and put corn in, no fertilizer, that part of the field yielded the best! have run these tests for about 10 years, as every year won't be the same! each of these tests were done in the same field, same soil, flat ground. Dad always plowed the fields every 5 years, then in-between just disked before planting. he had a JD disk, it wasn't very heavy so about all it did was chop some of the stalks and disturb about the top 1-2 inches of dirt. i have a very heavy deep tillage disk that cuts everything and goes in about 4-6 inches into the soil. so it's about like plowing! anyway, not trying to perswade anyone, this is just for my own learning. different types of practices works very different in other fields everywhere! when you find what works for you...use it, don't worry about what the neighbor or the manufacurer thinks! the equipment makers are in for the fast buck, they don't care if you raise a crop, just that you buy their equipment to try! and as alot of you know....alot of the older equipment still works better than the so called "new-improved" junk! 
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XT in pa View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote XT in pa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2011 at 5:53am
the people around us (south western pa) we still use moldboard plow/ and disc , we have chisel plowed and no-till but it seems to npt help the weeds. we usualy have to spray round up twice .when we moldboard plow we bery them then spray once and have a clean field                                                                                            Shawn

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CTuckerNWIL View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2011 at 7:46am
Around this area(NW Illinois), most guys don't touch bean ground and no till or min till corn in. A good part of tillage around here is deep ripping cornstalks in the fall. Still a lot of chisel plowing and If you have bottom ground, more than likely there is a moldboard plow hooked up right now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kcgrain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2011 at 8:48am
Shameless pretty much hit it on the head, at least that is the way it has been working up here in NE Wisconsin. No till has alot of talk, but no till acreage has actually subsidded, the big gain in no till has been in the great plains where they lack water, and can no till there wheat crop back into the wheat stubble, saving prescious moisture, and cut down on the expence of tilling up or summer fallowing ground. Vertical tilage, in my opinion is another way of getting farmers to spend some more money on this "state of the art" idea that going to return big returns............except in never seems to, just like the big push a couple of years ago to 15-20-22in corn rows, a few bite and than it fades away.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2011 at 10:37am
With BT cornstalks being as tough as they are some tillage almost has to take place. Have yall seen the new stalk stompers for combine tires??? Also any type of tillage no matter what, even row cleamers or no-till openers, causes some compaction especially when the soil is wet. I plowed early this spring before we had the big ohio river flood. I had my corn planted a week before lots of folks could get back in the field because the soil dried out faster and warmed up more. Each farms specific soil types and structure determine the practices best used.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kcgrain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2011 at 10:52am
I get a kick out of the big BT corn stalk ie lets spend some more money issue. We have a 6rn stalk chopper that we have used for years, have replaced the blades and bearings on it etc, but dont have but 5 grand spent on it (bought used) we put it behind a XT or 210 or 7060 whatever they feel like driving, but there is another lets say 10 grand. The amount of fuel these tractors burn might cost me another 2 bucks per acre. So there isnt alot of money spent to chop stalks which is by far the best way to get rid of that residue. However the industry wants you to buy a stalk chopping corn head ($58,000 6rn) a larger combine to handle the extra power ($325,000) some vertical tillage tools to chop up whats left (30-80,000)  So for just a small fee of 4-500,000 you can handle this so called Bt problem, yep that made me alot of money extra!!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve Bright Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2011 at 11:54am
We on our third fall using a Salford vertical tillage, This year we are trying to use it on everything, last 2 years ran corn stalks only, Plan to plant corn into soybeans stubble just like it is this spring, Will drill soybeans into corn stalks like they are come spring, Erosion has becomes less of an issue after using this tool. I keep telling my son there has to be a down side to this vertical tillage, But we have not found it yet. Fields are smoother for spreading fertilize and chemical application. seed depth is easier to regulate also, fuel comsumption at the end of the year is way down. But, like I have already stated I'm still looking for the bite to take place, hopefully it won't. I'm 60 years old and I really like this tool.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skyhighballoon(MO) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2011 at 12:06pm
I'm not sure what tool he used, but my farming partner used a vertical tillage tool this fall on my early crop soybean ground before planting winter wheat.  We put a little fall fertilizer down (30-15-15) first.  I wanted something done to incorporate the UREA so we didn't lose it if it didn't rain soon afterwards.  His goal was to fluff the first 2 inches of the soil for good seed contact for the no-till drill for the winter wheat.  I'll take a look at the results this weekend when I get back to the farm again.

While we do no-till plant/drill everything (corn, beans, wheat), I do try to moldboard plow about every 3 years, usually in the spring after corn was planted the year before.  I like to run a disc over the stalks in the fall first to cut them up then let them rot all winter in order to get the trash from the BT corn through the Allis 70 series plows in the spring....by the way...probably have a plow day again at my place next spring 2012 to do just that.  Mike


Edited by Skyhighballoon(MO) - 27 Oct 2011 at 12:08pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ACFarmer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2011 at 4:05pm
Originally posted by Steve Bright Steve Bright wrote:

We on our third fall using a Salford vertical tillage, This year we are trying to use it on everything, last 2 years ran corn stalks only, Plan to plant corn into soybeans stubble just like it is this spring, Will drill soybeans into corn stalks like they are come spring, Erosion has becomes less of an issue after using this tool. I keep telling my son there has to be a down side to this vertical tillage, But we have not found it yet. Fields are smoother for spreading fertilize and chemical application. seed depth is easier to regulate also, fuel comsumption at the end of the year is way down. But, like I have already stated I'm still looking for the bite to take place, hopefully it won't. I'm 60 years old and I really like this tool.
 
Start watching for a compaction layer about 4 inches down....
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Ryan Renko View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ryan Renko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2011 at 7:04pm
Our renter did apply fall fertilizer with a air spreader before he ran over it all with the great plains turbo till. I'm just as curious as the next guy what the results will be when corn is put in next spring. Ryan
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