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Cattle question

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tractorboy View Drop Down
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    Posted: 20 Mar 2023 at 2:00am
The wife & I been rasing 6 black angus cows here for 5 years or so. They are all natural, rotated every 3-4 days between 5 small pastures. They are pretty tame & pampered & show it. We started rolling out & and spreading hay across the pasture to distribute organic matter evenly. Problem I'm having is last 2 years some calves are born with a cough, we assumed it was from birth process but doesn't seem to be the case & quickly give a shot of antibiotics. We haven't lost one yet but the one born yesterday looks weak & only nursed once after birth. We mixed up some clostrum mix ,tried to give it to her but she wasm't interested at all. I'm wondering If we're gonna have to start a vaccination program. Any advice appreciated , thanks,  keith so. va. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thendrix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2023 at 6:00am
Did the hay smell moldy or see any black spots? If this has just happened in the last 2 years and didn't happen in the previous, 3 go back to what you changed 2 years ago and you'll probably find your problem

Edited by thendrix - 20 Mar 2023 at 6:05am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2023 at 6:48am
5 years and no vaccinations for cows or calves?!  That would be where I start, but I guess you do you.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2023 at 6:58am
Do you do any parasite treatments?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tractorboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2023 at 9:31am
I don't think the unrolling of hay has anything to do with it, I just mentioned that as part of trying to improve pasture. Although mama cows 2-3 years ago, once in a while would start coughing but seem to go away on it's own. It would come & go but they never seemed distressed, no labored breathing, coats look good, look like they are ready for show! If the hay made the cows cough, would that make a new born calf cough?? Doesn't make sense to me, my parents both smoked & coughed but I don't think I was born coughing.... 64 yrs. ago I can't remember!! We do use pour-on wormer & a little fly spray & fly block in summer. Tbone your opinion regular vaccinations would fix this???  If so is this something we can do or have to call the vet.? We have a headgate installed at the loading chute. thanks keith ,so.va.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lars(wi) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2023 at 9:49am
What breeding program are you using? Are you keeping back one of your own bulls?
I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tractorboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2023 at 10:18am
I have a friend that keeps a top notch bull,I rent from him. It'll be a different one this year.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dp7000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2023 at 10:28am
Definitely need vaccination program. Cows need annual IBR/BVD shots. Consult a local vet for what to use or have them do it first time. Really important to use the right vaccines.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2023 at 10:32am
Originally posted by tractorboy tractorboy wrote:

I don't think the unrolling of hay has anything to do with it, I just mentioned that as part of trying to improve pasture. Although mama cows 2-3 years ago, once in a while would start coughing but seem to go away on it's own. It would come & go but they never seemed distressed, no labored breathing, coats look good, look like they are ready for show! If the hay made the cows cough, would that make a new born calf cough?? Doesn't make sense to me, my parents both smoked & coughed but I don't think I was born coughing.... 64 yrs. ago I can't remember!! We do use pour-on wormer & a little fly spray & fly block in summer. Tbone your opinion regular vaccinations would fix this???  If so is this something we can do or have to call the vet.? We have a headgate installed at the loading chute. thanks keith ,so.va.
Well, "fix" is a strong word.  I certainly can't guarantee a fix.  But it is a start.  Many immunities are passed from mama to baby both in utero and in colostrum, and even in the milk.  And many of these antibodies come from vaccines given to mama when they were born and throughout their life.  You say "born coughing".  Is it actually born coughing, or within the first day, first 8-12 hours?  One thing I was curious of was whether a calf could be born with lung worms if the cow had lung worms, and without a lot of reading I couldn't confirm or disprove that.  Maybe someone on here already knows that for certain.  I do know older cows can develop some resistance to lung worms, so not exhibiting a lot of symptoms, but they'd still be there.  

Personally, I give 4 treatments to a calf as soon as it's dry or within a day of birth.  2 of them aren't vaccines per  se, I give BoSe and Vitamin A&D.  Also give a dose of Ultrabac (previously known as 7 way), and a product called Enforce (I think) that goes in their nostril.  It is really good for respiratory issues.   At weaning, they get another BoSE, another A&D, One Shot, something else I'm not remembering at the moment. 

You could take a fecal sample from a cow and or a calf to your vet to check for parasites.  You could ask or read up on lungworms, especially if they could be passed before birth.  And you could ask the vet or someone what is a typical vax program in your area.  It's what I believe in and practice, doesn't make it a fit for you.


Edited by Tbone95 - 20 Mar 2023 at 10:35am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray54 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2023 at 11:02am
Originally posted by tractorboy tractorboy wrote:

I have a friend that keeps a top notch bull,I rent from him. It'll be a different one this year.

Does this friend give any precautionary vaccinations?  I understand that large animal vets are hard to find in a lot of places.  So anybody with more than hobby size herd you could talk to. Talk to the people at feed store and find out what vaccine they sell much of, then a bit on online reading if an of it could a help with your problems.

Another thought any mineral deficiencies in your local soils. Here copper is very much needed over most other minerals. Not that mineral deficiencies would cause a cough that I know of. But having sufficient and balanced minerals adds to the general heath of all living things. 


 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thendrix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2023 at 12:38pm
Originally posted by tractorboy tractorboy wrote:

I don't think the unrolling of hay has anything to do with it, I just mentioned that as part of trying to improve pasture. Although mama cows 2-3 years ago, once in a while would start coughing but seem to go away on it's own. It would come & go but they never seemed distressed, no labored breathing, coats look good, look like they are ready for show! If the hay made the cows cough, would that make a new born calf cough?? Doesn't make sense to me, my parents both smoked & coughed but I don't think I was born coughing.... 64 yrs. ago I can't remember!! We do use pour-on wormer & a little fly spray & fly block in summer. Tbone your opinion regular vaccinations would fix this???  If so is this something we can do or have to call the vet.? We have a headgate installed at the loading chute. thanks keith ,so.va.


Viruses and bacteria can be passed to chicks from the hens so I would think it could be in cows as well. Also happens in humans. Dealing with that in this flock as a matter of fact.
"Farming is a business that makes a Las Vegas craps table look like a regular paycheck" Ronald Reagan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote klinemar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2023 at 10:18pm
We started on a vaccination program many years ago when our local Vet couldn't figure out why we had so much coughing and sickness in our dairy herd. My Dad called a different Vet who diagnosed Intra Bovine Rhinotrichnosis and Para Influenza 3. We started vaccinating immediately. The vaccine was administered nasally,meaning we took a syringe with a plastic cannulae and shot it up the cows nose. I had cows pick me up off the ground and throw me as I had one arm around their neck and the other giving the vaccine. Later an injectable vaccine came out and that was easier. We always tried to keep up with vaccinating as our Vet said birds carried a lot of viruses and mice and rats could contaminate feed with their urine causing Leptospirosis. We vaccinated for that. We did have a healthy herd!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr p Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2023 at 7:41pm
My cows are diametrically opposed to angus, Guernseys, but it is rare but not impossible for a calf to be born with a respiratory issue. Vacination is important for brood cows but also make sure the cows are calving in a clean dry disinfected place. I like triagle 10 as an injectable twice a year. If you are calving in yearling or first calf heifers maybe a pre natal vacine might help but that seems to help. I have used enforce three as nasal for new borns but again, that is more for protection in the first couple of days not right at birth.

Maybe the beef guys can add in here but it sounds to me a little more nutritional. First thing that came to mind for me was white muscle disease or low selinium(vitamin e) A dose of mu se two prior to due date for the other mothers at this point might be a good place to start
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2023 at 10:44pm
What kind of milk does a forgetful cow give? Milk Of Amnesia
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Clay, you can be proud of your Cud-dly Rumenant Self...  That line was so bad, it made me Lactose Intolerant... LOL



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Are you putting these cows in the barn when they give birth?
If so look closely at the hay.
Don’t have to eat it to get respiratory problems but just breathe it.
As Tbone said 7 way at day old is what we used.
I’d sure be having a visit with the vet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2023 at 8:58am
Originally posted by dr p dr p wrote:

My cows are diametrically opposed to angus, Guernseys, but it is rare but not impossible for a calf to be born with a respiratory issue. Vacination is important for brood cows but also make sure the cows are calving in a clean dry disinfected place. I like triagle 10 as an injectable twice a year. If you are calving in yearling or first calf heifers maybe a pre natal vacine might help but that seems to help. I have used enforce three as nasal for new borns but again, that is more for protection in the first couple of days not right at birth.

Maybe the beef guys can add in here but it sounds to me a little more nutritional. First thing that came to mind for me was white muscle disease or low selinium(vitamin e) A dose of mu se two prior to due date for the other mothers at this point might be a good place to start
We have a TERRIBLE issue with selenium here.  Our soils and thus crops are practically completely missing it.  Years, and I mean decades ago, when grandpa and dad were in the dairy and then the beef cattle business, heavy calf losses were just a fact of life.  Some years 1/3 or more calf deaths.  Just the way it was.  A new vet came to town, (right across the road actually!) and said it doesn't have to be this way.  Explained white muscle disease and selenium.   During treatment of one of our critters, we were known to have the lowest selenium level ever tested in a live animal at MSU Veterinary lab.  We now have quite the treatment and nutrition regiment in place to deal with it, and rarely have the issue.  Once in a great while we do, but we're talking one every few years instead of several per year.  

Having said that, I've never known a cough to be a sign of it for us.  Not saying you're wrong, I don't know that, but it's not a sign for us.  Basically a complete lack of thriving, won't nurse, won't get up, etc.  Near death, they lay there and stretch their neck way out, arching it like, as if to try and look at their back or something.  In older cattle, that develop it instead of being born with it, their joints can look swollen and deformed.

Cows get MuSe about half way through pregnancy, then get selenium supplement fed to them for the last few months of gestation.  Have free choice of loose selenium salt year round.  Calves get a shot of BoSe at day old, again at about 6-8 weeks, and again at 5-6 months, then MuSe if we're raising them for beef the following year.


Edited by Tbone95 - 22 Mar 2023 at 9:01am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2023 at 9:05am
Are the cows teats dirty?  Are the cows giving birth in the pasture or in a dry lot?
 New born calves take a while to build up there immunities.  The colostrum from the mother cow's milk contains the antibodies necessary to help protect the new calf.
It is important the calf receives them in the first few hours.  The longer it goes before ingesting the colostrum, the less effective.

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The cows teats are clean, they stay in a pretty clean enviroment with the 5 pasture rotation . Thanks for everyones opinion , I'll do more research after the other 3 are born. thanks! keith , so.va.
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If you are feeding rolled hay and spreading it all over the ground, then that would be my first suspect as a cause of the coughing/respiratory problem.

It is bad enough to have to eat the stuff; but, to have to eat it and also graze through it and lay on it with no escape is a sure recipe for what you are describing.

Many will flame me for saying this; but, rolled hay should be outlawed; same goes for storing silage on the ground instead of in an upright silo.

When people started these two practices, their log chains started staying a lot shinier.

Rolled hay is a lazy man's solution; plus, it hides a thousand sins --- especially if you are buying it from someone else.

Good old-timey New Holland 275 square bales, not rained on and put up right, stored in a big barn loft way up off the damp ground is what you want.

A good stout barn loft with drop-through mangers down each side = you can feed two hundred head with your Sunday slippers on and not have to start a tractor.

Ground load trailers, electric fences, and rolled hay were the ruination of livestock farming.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuckSkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2023 at 4:24am
I will add one more reason to not spread rolled hay all over --- and never spread manure on your pasture fields --- NEVER --- unless you want weeds spread all over.

The disadvantages to spreading such on your ground far outweighs any supposed advantages.

Many many years and many thousands of cattle ago, we figured this out and started piling our manure in a big pile and giving it away to a guy who sold top-soil.

He would come with a big articulated loader and haul it away in tri-axle dump-trucks.

He would tailgate it over not-so-good dirt, mix it up with a plow, then pile it up --- black as a crow's wing --- and it looked like first rate top-soil.

Wherever it was spread, the weeds would go wild.

What we saved on 2-4-D was enough to get to eat out once in a while.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2023 at 8:06am
Originally posted by BuckSkin BuckSkin wrote:

If you are feeding rolled hay and spreading it all over the ground, then that would be my first suspect as a cause of the coughing/respiratory problem.

It is bad enough to have to eat the stuff; but, to have to eat it and also graze through it and lay on it with no escape is a sure recipe for what you are describing.

Many will flame me for saying this; but, rolled hay should be outlawed; same goes for storing silage on the ground instead of in an upright silo.

When people started these two practices, their log chains started staying a lot shinier.

Rolled hay is a lazy man's solution; plus, it hides a thousand sins --- especially if you are buying it from someone else.

Good old-timey New Holland 275 square bales, not rained on and put up right, stored in a big barn loft way up off the damp ground is what you want.

A good stout barn loft with drop-through mangers down each side = you can feed two hundred head with your Sunday slippers on and not have to start a tractor.

Ground load trailers, electric fences, and rolled hay were the ruination of livestock farming.


Wow, well. . .not flamed per se, but, wow!

Anyway, don't think day old calves are coughing because of eating hay. 

I do agree on the quality of hay, the good stored small squares vs round bales.  But then there's reality.  In the 70's and 80's when I was growing up, we only had about 25 momma cows, 1 bull, maybe 15 younger stock that was growing for breeding heifers or freezer beef.  Our barn is 40 feet by 80 feet where the hay mow is, another 20 feet wide lean to on the south side.  Feeding those in that barn, we put up, I don't know, maybe 7000- 9000 squares and 25 acres of corn silage?  Anyway, all of the hay required wouldn't fit in the barn (roughly 5000).  We were always looking for places to store hay, including stacking it outside!  Boy,  that kept well (NOT!)

Doing the math, 200 head, 8x as many as we had?  60,000 little squares? 8 barns our size? (ours was full, and full of manure!) Or lots more ratio of corn silage than we did?  Ahhh the days of taking the grub ax and chipping away at the frozen silage on the walls of the silo, but don't knock off the glazing!  I'd set up camp up that silo for at least an hour every day after school throwing down silage.  Definitely didn't do that in my slippers.  Wonder why my back is a little sore?

Not flaming you at all.  Just my view of reality.  The days of going up town and recruiting a few 14 year olds to come bale hay are a waayyyy distant memory.  


Edited by Tbone95 - 31 Mar 2023 at 8:24am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dp7000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2023 at 9:50am
I have to agree with Tbone95. I run 50 cows/calf pairs. Sometimes I will background an additional 120 steers, depending on how much hay I have. Rolling my hay allows me to do it all by myself. One man operation.

To address original question. I recommend consulting a local vet. They know specific viruses, bacterium, and deficiencies that are present in the area and can recommend vaccination/mineral program tailored for your herd. Conditions and strains of disease are different depending on what part of the country you’re in. Just my advice, hope it helps. Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Lars(wi) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2023 at 11:37am
If small squares are out of the question, at least get some sort of cage, or rack to put around the round bale, and put in on the same spot in each pasture for the season.
I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tractorboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2023 at 3:32pm
Cattle update, The other 4 births went fine no coughing. Only thing we came up with for the other one was,  1.the mom had an abnormal amount of ambiotic fluid & the calf got more than her share in her respitory tract, 2. it was a wind chill of 24 when she was born. We do raise some of our own hay, bout 200 squares each year, put up right & the cows love it. The round bales come in handy as we both work full time. We have a ring but only use it when the bull comes to keep him happy. I roll out & then spread by hand the round bales to evenly distribute the organic matter. This is the 2nd year for rolling & the pastures look much better already. I don't think a small operation can afford a vet. Ours are terrible here. One came out cut out an abcess on her foot $450.00 , should have rushed her to the sale but wife was attached. What got me was he cut on her hoof & put nothing on it, let her out of the headgate where she stepped immediately into a fresh manure pile !  Oh well , thanks for all the input & I will be getting a moisture meter to check the hay before I buy! keith, so.va.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote klinemar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2023 at 4:34pm
I make between 4- 500 4x5 round bales every year by myself unless my wife drives the pick up and trailer while I load with the tractor. All hay is stored inside in 3 barns. I stacked my last small square and pitched my last bushel of silage many years ago and I never thought it was easy! Getting help today to work in a hay mow would be like pushing a log chain in front of you!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr p Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2023 at 7:05pm
I would agree there can be a lot of waste with round bales, especially when they are left right in the field. But i think all of us can agree it doesn't really matter if hay is round or square, if you make it correctly it can be great and if you don't crap is crap. But thinking you can make enough small squares to feed a big beef herd, you either need a highly specialized equipment or a very fertile wife
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2023 at 7:16pm
Originally posted by dr p dr p wrote:

I would agree there can be a lot of waste with round bales, especially when they are left right in the field. But i think all of us can agree it doesn't really matter if hay is round or square, if you make it correctly it can be great and if you don't crap is crap. But thinking you can make enough small squares to feed a big beef herd, you either need a highly specialized equipment or a very fertile wife

Hahaha, well said!!
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