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jake pogg 
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Location: Galena,Alaska
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 Topic: the lube confusion...
Posted: 03 Jul 2021 at 10:03am |
 Greetings,everyone,my first post here.
Right off the bat would like to beg for help:I'm but a humble river-rat that knows Nothing about tractors(not even the proper part names so beg pardon for garbling the terms).
I was loaned this sweet old 500-series('71,maybe?),and yesterday went to try to change fluids,to be nice to the poor neglected tractor. (it runs like a top(knock on wood),and is a sweetheart in Every way,and a total lifesaver on this job that i absolutely MUST finish by fall-time,it feeds the logs up to my platform,i'd be sunk without it).
It has sat for some years,and many of them with the cap missing off the "tranny"-or what i Thought of one-where the shift stick comes out of,between your feet as you sit. It appears though that instead it's a "transaxle",instead,and was filled with 90w(by the smell of it),foul,old 90w generously mixed with water...
The dipstick for the transmission(hydrostatic?)is Right next to it,and what i dumped out of the tranny was sure looking like ATF. So i went to put ATF into that fill-cap,like an idjit,not realising that the two reservoirs are not the same!!!
I realised my mistake,(after dumping over a gallon of ATF into the gearing...:(...)and filled the tranny to the proper level and was done with that,and went to suck out the gear box with a vacuum pump.
I got most of ATF out,but the old 90w is too thick for the weeny pump hose...I went and opened the reduction gear boxes(?) at each drive-wheel hub,hoping the crap may leak out of there,but precious little did...
I see no means of accessing that gearing to change out the fluids,no drain,no level inspection bolt,no nuffink...
But my main question is how badly i screwed up dumping all that ATF into the gears?
Thanks in advance for any thoughts or suggestions...
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jake pogg
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Location: Galena,Alaska
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Posted: 03 Jul 2021 at 10:19am |
P.S.
I must add that i'm in fairly remote Alaskan village,a few hundred miles from the road-system,and things are often done kinda different here,so no telling what the tractor has been through in the past,and what it may've been lubed with out of expediency.
Also,we had a fairly devastating flood here back in '13,and this critter may've been flooded,in which case there'll be also silt in the bottom of gear cases et c.
The engine is gas,and seems ok,compression good.But the hydraulic fluid was severely mixed with all kinds of water,came out all tan,not even streaky but solid tan color...(of course i warmed the critter up before dumping fluids). The filter element for the hydraulics is being flown out from town,i'm down until at least then,but have the resources for hopefully to resolve these other issues,plenty of 10w to fill any of this that likes it,et c.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 03 Jul 2021 at 10:40am |
Your 500 fork truck is basically a D15 farm tractor. Most people would use Universal Tractor Fluid is the compartments. That being said, a good quality 10wt oil could be used for most applications. Certainly better than the old watered down dirty lube... Yes, there could have been gear lube in one or two compartments. Hard to say what was added over the last 50 years........ I would be very temped to flush as best as possible and use the 10wt for transmission and hydraulics... There should be a pipe plug on the bottom of the cavities... dont need a suction gun.... You tractor looks something like this.
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DanWi
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Posted: 03 Jul 2021 at 10:56am |
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Not real sure hopefully someone with more knowledge of this model but if you drained finals they are separate and need to be refilled, they probably do take 90wt. Universal trans hydro fluid for transmission and hydraulics 2 separate fill locations try to drain the best you can especially if you are running it it the cold part of Alaska
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Boss Man
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Posted: 03 Jul 2021 at 11:03am |
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The ATF wont hurt anything but shouldn't be left in the gear box/rear end. It doesn't have the shearing properties required by the ring and pinion. A little residue shouldn't hurt any thing.
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jake pogg
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Posted: 03 Jul 2021 at 12:58pm |
THANKS,everyone.
(not the greatest internet user here,so will try to respond in order,quoting the exact mssg may be beyond my skill).
Steve,yes,that's it exactly.D15 it must be,just like in your photo.
Flushing the gear compartment is what i'm attempting right now.
No plug or even a bolt on the bottom or sides,nothing at all.
On the left side,under the rocker Forward/Reverse hand/foot lever there's an inspection plate of some sort,with multiple flat-head screws holding it on,of a large dia.,3/4" or so.
Am attempting to dismount enough floor plating to get to it,and see if i've enough tools to break those screws loose,to access the inside of the gear box.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 03 Jul 2021 at 1:11pm |
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one option would be to put 10wt oil in ontop of the gear lube.. Run the tractor around for 15 minutes to mix it up ( thin out the gear lube), then maybe be able to pump it out... I am not familiar with the 500.... hard to believe it does not have a drain plug.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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jake pogg
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Posted: 03 Jul 2021 at 1:11pm |
DanWi,thank you:
"Finals" must be what i thought of reduction gear boxes,right on the hubs,is that right?
If so,the inspection/fill plugs on them are some distance from the bottom,is that the level to which i fill those?
(what came out of them was pretty sad looking,i'm glad i drained them(and in general glad that i'm going into all these places,it's been seriously neglected,and i'd hate for anything to happen to this neat old tractor).
The transmission has a dipstick(screw-in kind)right in front and under the seat,and another cap-dipstick on the left side further back,next to where hydraulic pump is mounted to it.
It SEEMS like it has the fresh ATF on that second one,from where i filled it through the first dipstick,however,underneath there's a second drain plug-are they two different compartments then? Should i open and drain the second plug as well? (i only drained the furthest forward one,it's lower and seemed like the sump).
Not real sure hopefully someone with more knowledge of this model but if you drained finals they are separate and need to be refilled, they probably do take 90wt. Universal trans hydro fluid for transmission and hydraulics 2 separate fill locations try to drain the best you can especially if you are running it it the cold part of Alaska
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 03 Jul 2021 at 1:18pm |
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im not up to date on the D15 transmission, but on the smaller tractor ( modelB), you have to pull three different drain plugs to get all the transmission / differential oil out.. Then refill at ONE spot.. The D15 may have seperate compartments, but you could use the SAME OIL... The DROP FINAL DRIVES have a sheetmetal pan on the bottom. They need to be removed and cleaned to get all the CRUD OUT... Then there is a refill plug up a few inches on the pan.. You refill to that level.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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jake pogg
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Posted: 03 Jul 2021 at 1:18pm |
Steve(ill),thanks again,Sir.
If i can't take that inspection-plate looking thing off,i was wondering if i can do similar to what you suggest but using diesel,to clean it out better. I'm planning to refill it eventually with more 75-90w,would some inevitable diesel remnants make it a badidea,is that why it's better to do it with 10w?
one option would be to put 10wt oil in ontop of the gear lube.. Run the tractor around for 15 minutes to mix it up ( thin out the gear lube), then maybe be able to pump it out... I am not familiar with the 500.... hard to believe it does not have a drain plug. |
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 03 Jul 2021 at 1:23pm |
so the CAVITY you are sucking oil out of is the sheetmetal pan with one refill plug by the wheel rim ? Are there a dozen small 5/16 or 3/8 bolts to remove the pan and then you can dump it out ? If your not going that far, yes, just fill with diesel and run around and mix it up, then suck it out... Anything is better than the original crud.. Most had 90wt gear lube as you said... It was not uncommon to put the UTF in some newer tractors.. It works in the trans gear box, so why not the final drive gear box.
Whether you use 90wt or UTF is not important.. What is important is getting the CRUD/ DIRT/ WATER out of the lube that is being flung into the bearings... The CLEANER the oil is, the BETTER it is... Do it twice if needed.
Edited by steve(ill) - 03 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm
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jake pogg
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Posted: 03 Jul 2021 at 1:24pm |
Steve(ill),thanks yet again. Roger that,will check all drain plugs i can,(it must be that it refills eventually hydrostatically,once running...).
Will try to attempt to take off the pans on the final drives,hope it'd not require taking the wheels off...not sure i've technology at the moment to do so...
im not up to date on the D15 transmission, but on the smaller tractor ( modelB), you have to pull three different drain plugs to get all the transmission / differential oil out.. Then refill at ONE spot.. The D15 may have seperate compartments, but you could use the SAME OIL... The DROP FINAL DRIVES have a sheetmetal pan on the bottom. They need to be removed and cleaned to get all the CRUD OUT... Then there is a refill plug up a few inches on the pan.. You refill to that level. |
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 03 Jul 2021 at 1:28pm |
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On a farm tractor you can move the tire out and get the final drive pans off.. Maybe not on the fork truck... Dont bother.. FLush it out twice with your diesel and refill with what is available... Your bearings will love it !!
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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jake pogg
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Posted: 03 Jul 2021 at 1:32pm |
No,Sir,that's the trouble:The cavity i need to void is the main gear case right at your feet as you drive,with the gear shift lever coming out of it. The axles come out both ways and go down to the finals from there(they must share the fluid,or maybe not?),but it's the main deal,with all the gearing that you shift(4-speed H pattern).
On bottom OR sides there's Nothing,NO plugs/drains/or even bolts that go to fluid. Underneath is a very heavy skid-plate,but i can see in between and there's nothing there either...
I ran home to check these mssgs,will grab the computer and run back to the building site with it,and check it periodically.
I REALLY appreciate everyone's tme and effort in helping with this.
so the CAVITY you are sucking oil out of is the sheetmetal pan with one refill plug by the wheel rim ? Are there a dozen small 5/16 or 3/8 bolts to remove the pan and then you can dump it out ? If your not going that far, yes, just fill with diesel and run around and mix it up, then suck it out... Anything is better than the original crud.. Most had 90wt gear lube as you said... It was not uncommon to put the UTF in some newer tractors.. It works in the trans gear box, so why not the final drive gear box. |
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 03 Jul 2021 at 1:43pm |
OK, my bad.... Like i said, i am not 100% sure on the D15 details.. I though every transmission / differential that ALLIS made had a drain plug....
I would agree, filling with diesel and running around, then pump out would be a good idea.. pump out everything you can, then put the good stuff back in.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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jake pogg
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Posted: 03 Jul 2021 at 2:22pm |
Yessir,i'm at the site now,and that case is absolutely blind. On the bottom left there's a round indent in the casting where i'd imaging the drain was meant to be bored and tapped et c.,but it's blank on this one. I'm not sure i'm up to drilling into it and tapping it,not at present,these logs Must go up and get tin on them before the winter,i'm kinda in a slow-motion race here with this...
I'm failing to access that side inspection or whatever plate also,the floor plate there holds the rocker shift and has a number of 1 1/4" bolts pretty frozen,and barely room to get at them... The plate itself is held on by these funky large straight slot machine screws,i tried a couple and it'd take an air-impact,and a Very carefully sized bit to not ruin the slot...I can see the damage to the slots where someone powered them In,so i think i'll forego this idea,as tempting as it is to Really get in there to clean things out Good.
So douching the gears with diesel it must be,i'm just waiting for the hyd.system filter element that should be on the flight coming in,then the rig will be operational and i can run it to mix the sludge with the diesel.
On the plus side,the final drives' bottom covers will come off without messing with the wheels,i'll clean them out Real good and refill with fresh gear lube,i think the old girl will appreciate that.
I thank you most kindly for all the help,it's greatly appreciated.
On the plus side
"OK, my bad.... Like i said, i am not 100% sure on the D15 details.. I though every transmission / differential that ALLIS made had a drain plug....
I would agree, filling with diesel and running around, then pump out would be a good idea.. pump out everything you can, then put the good stuff back in."
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jake pogg
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Posted: 03 Jul 2021 at 3:01pm |
More puzzlement...I've just got one of the final drives' pan off,and it's reasonably full,of a `(reasonably) clean Something.
It's dark brown in color,and smells pretty strong,but not like 90w or ATF(these two i'm well familiar with). Could this be the UTF that you folks talk of?
And IF so,then it must be what i drained out of the transmission,mistaking it for the degraded old ATF,i'm sure now that's what it was. And i put ATF in it's place...Was that a mistake?
How special is UTF? Is it something i should order from town to put in all these compartments,is it totally dissimilar to all the more common lubricants,with special qualities all it's own?
It'd set me back pretty badly to wait to get this in,but if that's what this tractor needs then them's the brakes,i'd not mistreat a classy old machine like that for nothing...
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 03 Jul 2021 at 4:15pm |
UTF if Universal Tractor FLuid... It is a 20wt hydraulic oil... Same viscosity as 20wt motor oil, but NO ADDATIVES for engine use. Over the years the D15 and 17 have used 90 wt gear oil, ATF fluid, 20 wt hydrauilc oil, and now MOST GUYS just go with the UTF.. It is a good quality all around oil that you can use on ALLIS, JD , CASE, or ANYTHING.... Normally they use it in the transmission, differential, power director, some brake systems, and some steering systems. D15 is not new ( 50 years old), so the UTF is good for about everything except the motor ! ( you could also use the ATF or 20wt oil on some compartments . EVERYTHING dont have to be the same) .......... you might want to continue to use the 10wt hydraulic oil in that system for a fork truck
Sounds like your doing good.. Sometimes you just got to play the hand your delt. Ben there, done that....you cant always follow the book.. Main thing is KEEP IT CLEAN.
Edited by steve(ill) - 03 Jul 2021 at 4:19pm
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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jake pogg
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Posted: 03 Jul 2021 at 5:23pm |
Thanks a million,Steve,yet again,i understand so much more now. Will try to use all that to do right by this old girl,she's a sweetheart,don't know what i'd do without her...(i'd be wasting all kinds of time building some awful gin-pole or worse...).
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MACK
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Posted: 03 Jul 2021 at 9:36pm |
I have a I600, which is almost the same. Use universal hydraulic fluid in every thing except motor. The hydraulic tank on mine is a round tube between frames, in front of differential and behind mass. Don't use that heavy 90 in anything especially in Alaska. It will lube gears but not bearings in cold weather. They are good machines, hope the best for you and your forklift. I love mine. MACK
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jake pogg
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Posted: 04 Jul 2021 at 1:13am |
 MACK wrote:
I have a I600, which is almost the same. Use universal hydraulic fluid in every thing except motor. The hydraulic tank on mine is a round tube between frames, in front of differential and behind mass. Don't use that heavy 90 in anything especially in Alaska. It will lube gears but not bearings in cold weather.They are good machines, hope the best for you and your forklift. I love mine. MACK |
Mack,thank you for that-i got this just as i was finally getting done voiding the gear case. It sounds very sensible,and so i changed my plan and will use Valvoline hydraulic oil in gear case instead of 90w(also because i'd like to pump it out another time or two to make sure all water is gone,and vacuum pumping 90 is such misery,took hours to do).
The final drive covers had a cake,literally,of old congealed lubricant at bottom,i cleaned them out all shiny and refilled with 90w(before i got this,but this machine won't be used in cold weather anyway,and/or they can always use another change,condensation here always contaminates fluids anyway).
Thanks a Lot,everyone,you guys been extremely helpful.I can get back to stacking my logs again,a huge weight off my shoulders. Loved working on that old tractor,such neat machine,and feels just great knowing it got some help even in such small way.
I've a sweet,NOS carb to put on it sometime soon,and am a bit intimidated by the governor ,so may have to impose on your generosity once again soon.
Good luck to everyone with their projects,take care and thanks again.
Jake
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