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TomYaz 
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 Topic: Hydraulic Motors and WD45 ??
Posted: 04 Nov 2010 at 1:02pm |
guys,
Look at this product:
Says to "avoid using maximum speed and pressure at the same time"...
I would think that to get max speed you need to apply max pressure..but since I know nothing about hydraulic motors, could someone educate me?
I would like to perhaps use this motor to power an all-crop reel independent of the ground travel. Would like to use my WD45 hydraulics system. Wondering what issues I have to deal with. One is the high pressures of wd45 hydraulics, two, want to still use the remote to lift the combine header--not sure if a conflict there...
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 04 Nov 2010 at 1:13pm |
First, you need to now how much HP the motor needs to do the work you want it to do...
You also need to know the GPM ( Gallons Per Minute) the motor needs and YOUR pump must be able to supply more than that for it to work.
You also need a good(big) reservoir for the oil(with baffles !) and large hoses and couplers.
The WD45 system is high pressure-low volume so I don't think you're in luck(others will KNOW)..I'd think about a PTO driven pump or one piggybacked onto the alternator/generator.It'll depend on the specs though....
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TomYaz
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Posted: 04 Nov 2010 at 1:26pm |
 jaybmiller wrote:
First, you need to now how much HP the motor needs to do the work you want it to do...
You also need to know the GPM ( Gallons Per Minute) the motor needs and YOUR pump must be able to supply more than that for it to work.
You also need a good(big) reservoir for the oil(with baffles !) and large hoses and couplers.
The WD45 system is high pressure-low volume so I don't think you're in luck(others will KNOW)..I'd think about a PTO driven pump or one piggybacked onto the alternator/generator.It'll depend on the specs though....
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Ok thanks. I do know that I need very little. I can spin the reel manually with my finger with no effort. The only resistance is going to be the crop which is not going to much - only a 5' cut. Slow speed as well; under 100 rpm I would think.
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Kev Card
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Posted: 04 Nov 2010 at 2:30pm |
Tom, I have a friend that owns a Heston stack-hand that has a self contained hydraulic system that drives off of the machines PTO shaft the valves are on hoses and can be clamped tractor fender it worked quite well Kev
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TomYaz
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Posted: 04 Nov 2010 at 2:49pm |
Kev Card wrote:
Tom, I have a friend that owns a Heston stack-hand that has a self contained hydraulic system that drives off of the machines PTO shaft the valves are on hoses and can be clamped tractor fender it worked quite well Kev |
Cant use a PTO pump. Dont need the added expense, and the combine wouldnt be able to do much without a PTO hookup available. Since the remote is powering the lift cylinder, I would want to tie in to the tractor lift rams line. So I need to find a motor that would work. Less than 1 HP required. Dont know the GPM of the WD45 pump...
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Roddo
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Posted: 04 Nov 2010 at 2:54pm |
Kev Card wrote:
that drives off of the machines PTO shaft |
I dont see how this wouldnt work. The machines PTO shaft would be spinning when you are using it, no?
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smuggler
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Posted: 04 Nov 2010 at 3:25pm |
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tom try the SURPLUS CENTER in nebraska. there online and they have alot of hydralic motors and reasonable prices.
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TomYaz
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Posted: 04 Nov 2010 at 3:27pm |
smuggler wrote:
tom try the SURPLUS CENTER in nebraska. there online and they have alot of hydralic motors and reasonable prices. |
Will do but I dont have much hope....Read that the Wd45 has GPM of 3 or so....not promising...
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TomYaz
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Posted: 04 Nov 2010 at 3:32pm |
TomYaz wrote:
smuggler wrote:
tom try the SURPLUS CENTER in nebraska. there online and they have alot of hydralic motors and reasonable prices. |
Will do but I dont have much hope....Read that the Wd45 has GPM of 3 or so....not promising... |
Well wouldya look at this:
is this "The One"? (with aplogies to Obama)
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 04 Nov 2010 at 4:42pm |
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In most hydraulic motors, you get speed with volume and the resulting pressure comes from that speed doing work, e.g. producing torque. So speed and torque means horsepower, maximum speed and maximum torque means maximum horsepower.
When shopping for a motor, watch out for its maximum pressure rating the WD45's peak pressure of 3000 psi can blow the seals out of many motors.
Gerald J.
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Dans 7080
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Posted: 04 Nov 2010 at 5:02pm |
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Im not sure if this will help or not but grandpa had one mounted to his belt pully so he could run two-way cylinders for his loader. Might be something to consider.
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smuggler
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Posted: 04 Nov 2010 at 5:20pm |
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the Surplus Center has alot of things hard to beat there price on hyd. components. also on electric motors and gearboxs, Have them send you a catalague, alot military surplus Eric
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TomYaz
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Posted: 04 Nov 2010 at 7:28pm |
Gerald J. wrote:
In most hydraulic motors, you get speed with volume and the resulting pressure comes from that speed doing work, e.g. producing torque. So speed and torque means horsepower, maximum speed and maximum torque means maximum horsepower.
When shopping for a motor, watch out for its maximum pressure rating the WD45's peak pressure of 3000 psi can blow the seals out of many motors.
Gerald J.
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Gerald, on the one I linked, max is 5000 PSI..also says .98 GPM at 1000 RPM.
Does that mean it needs a flow to it at .98 to get the thing to spin at 1000 RPM?..not sure how I am supposed to interpret that....
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TomYaz
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Posted: 04 Nov 2010 at 7:28pm |
Dans 7080 wrote:
Im not sure if this will help or not but grandpa had one mounted to his belt pully so he could run two-way cylinders for his loader. Might be something to consider. |
Thats something to think about...good tip!
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Dave in il
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Posted: 04 Nov 2010 at 7:36pm |
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Just out of curiosity why do you need a variable speed reel? I'm not an AllCrop expert by any means, but the forward speed is pretty limited. I ran my 72 in drilled beans in 1rst high range with the D17, I thought about trying 2nd low but I'm not sure if the combine could have handled it. Of course I was running the original belts.
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CTuckerNWIL
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Posted: 04 Nov 2010 at 7:47pm |
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Tom, Read Kev's post again. The pump he is talking about works off of the combines PTO shaft. Your tractor turns the combine PTO shaft, so everything works powered by one tractor.
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Joe(TX)
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Posted: 04 Nov 2010 at 7:48pm |
To clarify what some said:
Speed comes from flow (gpm)
torque comes from pressure
Speed has nothing to do with pressure.
another answer
If it says .98 gpm for 1000 rpm, that is exactly what it needs for 1000 rpm.
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TomYaz
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Posted: 04 Nov 2010 at 8:53pm |
CTuckerNWIL wrote:
Tom, Read Kev's post again. The pump he is talking about works off of the combines PTO shaft. Your tractor turns the combine PTO shaft, so everything works powered by one tractor. |
Yes I see that. Sounds like it would have to be a proprietary get up wouldnt it? To run on the machines PTO as opposed to the end of the tractors PTO it would have to be in-line or use some sort of contraption that rides the shaft?. And this is a pump he's talking about. Dont want the pump expense if I can avoid it.
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TomYaz
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Posted: 04 Nov 2010 at 8:54pm |
Joe(TX) wrote:
To clarify what some said:
Speed comes from flow (gpm)
torque comes from pressure
Speed has nothing to do with pressure.
another answer
If it says .98 gpm for 1000 rpm, that is exactly what it needs for 1000 rpm. |
Well then this motor should work dandy with a low flow pump like the 3GPM Allis because I would never need to go that fast. 50-100 RPM max
Edited by TomYaz - 04 Nov 2010 at 8:54pm
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TomYaz
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Posted: 04 Nov 2010 at 8:57pm |
Dave in il wrote:
Just out of curiosity why do you need a variable speed reel? I'm not an AllCrop expert by any means, but the forward speed is pretty limited. I ran my 72 in drilled beans in 1rst high range with the D17, I thought about trying 2nd low but I'm not sure if the combine could have handled it. Of course I was running the original belts. |
Its not that I need a variable speed. I need a constant speed. Your forgetting your reel on the 72 is always spinning regardless if the combine is moving forward or not.
On the 60/66, the tires drive the reel. If your combine is not going forward, your reel is not spinning.. I hate that.. and is fixed on the 72/90
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Dave in il
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Posted: 04 Nov 2010 at 10:29pm |
Well I said I'm no AllCrop expert. LOL! I wasn't aware of the ground driven reel on the older machines.
I think Kev is on the right track, you could run the pump off of one of the combines drives with a belt or chain, use a resivor like an old air tank from a semi and drive the real with a small hyd motor everything would be self contained on the machine.
You could run it with a tractor with no hydraulics like a WC.
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D-17_Dave
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Posted: 04 Nov 2010 at 11:25pm |
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The speed of a hydraulic motor is determined by the flow from the pump=GPM divided by the displacement of the motor=cubic inches. There are tons of displacement variations. The larger the displacement, the slower the rpm. But, the larger the displacement the more torque output the motor has. The key to all this is you build little to no pressure until you load the hydraulic circut and build back pressure against the applied load. This can be done up to near the max pump output pressure. Now then, the variables are for every HP you put into the oil there must be a HP drawn out or the power turns to heat. Since there is no 100 percent hydraulic circuts known to man they build heat fast under a lot of pressure. Just some things to understand.
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 04 Nov 2010 at 11:57pm |
No, you read it wrong. - 0.218 cu in displ
- 2000 PSI cont
- 2500 PSI
- 3500 RPM max as pump
- 5000 RPM max as motor
- 0.95 GPM @ 1000 RPM
- Reversible rotation
| - 35 in lbs/ 1000 PSI
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2000 psi max. .95 gal /1000 rpm so at 100 rpm it would need .095 gal/min. 35 inch pounds at 1000 psi so it would have a torque of 70 inch pounds or 6 foot pounds at 2000 psi. Just about what a strong hand can turn a screwdriver handle. I don't think that's enough to overcome friction or inertia to start a reel. You really need something in a motor with ten times the displacement, say 2.5 cubic inches that would run 100 rpm at about 1 gpm, and would produce 700 inch pounds or 60 foot pounds at 1000 psi. Maybe a compromise 1.5 cubic inches, so to run 100 rpm at 0.6 gpm and produce 420 inch pounds or 35 foot pounds torque at 1000 psi. Gerald J.
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TomYaz
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Posted: 05 Nov 2010 at 5:18am |
Thanks Guys for the education...
Now as a Test to see if I understood any of this; would this be better:
On this one I would have to be careful about the PSI....
This one might be better...can handle higher PSI:
Edited by TomYaz - 05 Nov 2010 at 7:05am
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TomYaz
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Posted: 05 Nov 2010 at 7:07am |
Dave in il wrote:
Well I said I'm no AllCrop expert. LOL! I wasn't aware of the ground driven reel on the older machines.
I think Kev is on the right track, you could run the pump off of one of the combines drives with a belt or chain, use a resivor like an old air tank from a semi and drive the real with a small hyd motor everything would be self contained on the machine.
You could run it with a tractor with no hydraulics like a WC. |
Creative but Rube Goldbergish!! LOL! Of course the untrained eye might say that about the whole combine!
Yeah if I can avoid a pump, all the better. Dont ever forsee having a tractor without a pump
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TomYaz
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Posted: 05 Nov 2010 at 7:16am |
TomYaz wrote:
Thanks Guys for the education...
Now as a Test to see if I understood any of this; would this be better:
On this one I would have to be careful about the PSI....
This one might be better...can handle higher PSI:
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Bah! the torque is listed as inch pounds..can I divide by 12 to get foot pounds?
Double Bah! Dont think these will work....not enough foot pounds when slowing down the RPMs.....
Edited by TomYaz - 05 Nov 2010 at 7:23am
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JohnThomas
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Posted: 05 Nov 2010 at 7:35am |
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Why not just put a Vee pulley & belt to the reel on the end of another drive pulley on combine? Why need a hyd pump?
Dad put one on the end of the cylinder I'm thinking or one very near it. But that was back in the 40's. Dunno which combine it was but it WAS an Allis.
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TomYaz
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Posted: 05 Nov 2010 at 7:38am |
JohnThomas wrote:
Why not just put a Vee pulley & belt to the reel on the end of another drive pulley on combine? Why need a hyd pump?
Dad put one on the end of the cylinder I'm thinking or one very near it. But that was back in the 40's. Dunno which combine it was but it WAS an Allis.
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Because that would be too easy!!! Was looking at a hydraulic solution as faster way to get there and provide variable speed option...but Im afraid I cant get enough torque needed at such a low RPM......So I may do what you say...
So another question....What is a good RPM speed for a 60/66 Reel. Im guessing 50RPM? But that may be too fast...
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wdmstr
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Posted: 05 Nov 2010 at 8:09am |
you want to very careful as the housing can break and hurt anyone close by btdt
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BILL
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wdmstr
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Posted: 05 Nov 2010 at 8:21am |
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when hooket to wd45
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