D17 Hydraulics upgrade

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   New member here. I live in Western NY in what would be called Skii country, IE lots of snow and Hot Muggy summers. I have 2 D17's. One is a late series IV Wide with a Schwartz Front loader and Later Series III also wide. The Series III does not have a belt line and is blanked off.

Question is has anyone ever tried to fabricate or install a Series IV style Hydraulic pump in the belt line port? On series IV that is a live connection, while Series III and earlier that is a foot clutched PTO connection. Can it be done? If so would it be PTO based or live like the Series IV?

 I know there are front crank mount kits, trying to NOT go that route. 

My plan is to install a front mounted snow plow that runs off tractor hydraulics not off electric. My Series IV is VERY tired and when I use it for snow removal work, I usually end up creating a whole lot of work for myself in the spring putting SOD back.

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Big Jim AC Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 22 Aug 2020 Location: Western,NY Points: 10	Post Options Post Reply Quote Big Jim AC Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: D17 Hydraulics upgrade Posted: 22 Aug 2020 at 8:39pm
	New member here. I live in Western NY in what would be called Skii country, IE lots of snow and Hot Muggy summers. I have 2 D17's. One is a late series IV Wide with a Schwartz Front loader and Later Series III also wide. The Series III does not have a belt line and is blanked off. Question is has anyone ever tried to fabricate or install a Series IV style Hydraulic pump in the belt line port? On series IV that is a live connection, while Series III and earlier that is a foot clutched PTO connection. Can it be done? If so would it be PTO based or live like the Series IV? I know there are front crank mount kits, trying to NOT go that route. My plan is to install a front mounted snow plow that runs off tractor hydraulics not off electric. My Series IV is VERY tired and when I use it for snow removal work, I usually end up creating a whole lot of work for myself in the spring putting SOD back.

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Big Jim AC Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 22 Aug 2020 Location: Western,NY Points: 10	Post Options Post Reply Quote Big Jim AC Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 Aug 2020 at 8:41pm
	I am thinking it could be done by taking a belt line and modify to mount the hydraulic pump. But would it be Clutch driven PTO or Live?

MACK Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 17 Nov 2009 Points: 7664	Post Options Post Reply Quote MACK Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 Aug 2020 at 8:47pm
	No, housings are different. Would have to change torque tube. Could mount pump in there, but would quit when you push clutch. MACK

DrAllis Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21395	Post Options Post Reply Quote DrAllis Report Post Thanks(1) Quote Reply Posted: 22 Aug 2020 at 8:57pm
	I've got a system designed that replaces the power steering pump with a newer/better pump that supplies oil to a power beyond valve stack first and then back to the power steering valve second. The only compromise would be for the 2 or 3 seconds a ram is extending/retracting the power steering would be manual and then kick back in. Internal pump would remain for lift arm loads, which are still 3700 psi.

Big Jim AC Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 22 Aug 2020 Location: Western,NY Points: 10	Post Options Post Reply Quote Big Jim AC Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 Aug 2020 at 9:15pm
	What is different internally between the Series III and Series IV that makes one live while the other PTO driven?

DrAllis Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21395	Post Options Post Reply Quote DrAllis Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 Aug 2020 at 9:23pm
	The clutch shaft is different and the torque housing is cast and machined differently. The live pump drive comes thru a hollow shaft driven by the pressure plate. The clutch shaft is inside this hollow shaft. It's just different and the live parts cannot be installed in an old torque hsg.

TramwayGuy Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 19 Jan 2010 Location: Northern NY Points: 11648	Post Options Post Reply Quote TramwayGuy Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 Aug 2020 at 9:36pm
	Why not stay with electric? It would only need to run when you are lifting the plow, or adjusting the angle.

Big Jim AC Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 22 Aug 2020 Location: Western,NY Points: 10	Post Options Post Reply Quote Big Jim AC Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 Aug 2020 at 9:37pm
	So best case if I were to follow through with this, is that it could be done but would be foot clutch interrupted, correct? Hand clutch operation would leave the PTO active, correct?

Big Jim AC Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 22 Aug 2020 Location: Western,NY Points: 10	Post Options Post Reply Quote Big Jim AC Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 Aug 2020 at 9:39pm
	electric is still an option, although The generator may not keep up with demand. Also looking to add hydraulic function for other implements beyond a simple single action lift after arms have extended.

DrAllis Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21395	Post Options Post Reply Quote DrAllis Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 Aug 2020 at 9:45pm
	My untested homemade system would be "live" and provide hydraulic power whenever the engine was running. Foot clutch still kills the PTO or the lift arm circuit.

Big Jim AC Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 22 Aug 2020 Location: Western,NY Points: 10	Post Options Post Reply Quote Big Jim AC Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 Aug 2020 at 9:53pm
	When a D17 is ordered and Belt line was NOT selected, does it still get built with all the internals in place if in case the owner wants to add later? Is there a gear in the torque tube that would allow me to buy a belt line and plug in?

DrAllis Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21395	Post Options Post Reply Quote DrAllis Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 Aug 2020 at 9:56pm
	Yes. The belt pulley gear and shifter is already inside a series 3 and older, but are dead when the foot clutch is depressed.

JC-WI Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: wisconsin Points: 34201	Post Options Post Reply Quote JC-WI Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 9:18am
	There was available from AC at one time an Aux. hydraulic pump that mounted in the belt pulley hole for D15, D17, D19 . Looked more like a plate over the hole with the pump mounted right to it.
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john(MI) Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: SE MI Points: 9262	Post Options Post Reply Quote john(MI) Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 10:00am
	There are three easier options. You could put a snow plow rig on the front of the 17, I know, it's electric, but if you have an alternator, and have switched the tractor to 12 volts, it should work fine. Another option which would be PTO controlled is to put a pump on the PTO and run lines forward from there. I think you would also need to mount an additional tank on the tractor somewhere for the fluid for that system. Another option, I ran a line from the hydraulic pump return port to the rear and created 2 way hydraulics, again, clutch controlled. I ran my backhoe off of this setup, and there was know problems with the higher pressure output from the pump some might warn against. If you are running a plow, the PTO issue should not be a problem. It would seem you would be adjusting the angle and height on the move.
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DrAllis Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21395	Post Options Post Reply Quote DrAllis Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 4:40pm
	Electric pump or front mounted pump or belt driven pump under the hood. No way would you ever catch me operating something like that having to use the hand clutch all the time.

DaveKamp Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5971	Post Options Post Reply Quote DaveKamp Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 Aug 2020 at 2:53pm
	I've run a 7' Meyer snowblade on my D17. It is currently set up to run the stock hoist with power-angle, and to make it survive in Iowa conditions, I had to hang a pair of 4D batteries on the side of the frame, and switch out the generator for an alternator. If your snow moving is less than mine, it'd probably be okay, but if you're in the snow-shadow of Lake Erie, I would say no-way-in-heck to recommending an electric operation. My circumstances here get bad at times, but it's usually more a case of extreme windblown snow, with ice underneath, and ice on top, than 48" of lake-effect snow at-a-time. The big downside of electric on a D17, is that you'll be constantly throttling up, and idling the engine, which will NOT give you high quantities of battery recovery. Switching my D17's winter rig to LED floodlights DID help, but the pump motor takes a heckuva beating when voltage starts to drop. To do it 'right', I'd suggest setting up a full-live hydraulic system, using low pressure/high volume, with a dedicated 10-gallon tank on the side of the frame, and at least two circuits, with two valves plumbed to the front of the tractor- one for lift, the other for angle, set them up so you can do both lift, and swing, at the same time, and put the control lever on the left hand fender, because your right hand, and both feet, will be VERY busy.
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