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desertjoe 
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 Topic: Badlands winches,,,
Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 11:59am |
I had a line to an ole fellar that might have an manifold like I been needin for the Massey and he had an old Badlands 9000Lbs winch layin in the weeds and I asked him if it for sale and he tells me,,: Give me a $20 and it yours. Has bout 150' of looks like 3/8" cable. He tells me it just stopped workin and he don't know nuttin bout them things,,,So,,he just went and bought another one. So,,,me being an advocate of UMmmm,,,"good deals",,I brought it home and come to find out,,the motor has a direct short from the positive bolt to the case. Took the motor apart and the short is in the brush plate assembly. The armature checks out perfect and the field coils in the case are also OK. The brushes on the positive side of the plate assy are somehow shorting to the plate assy. which in turn short to the case causing the motor to not run either direction. The brushes on the negative side have good continuity to the case like they should. The macarda insulators on the 2 positive brush holders looks to be good but that is where the short has to be. Anybody ever messed with a motor like this,,,,? (and,,,don't tell me to go buy a new winch) 
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Michael V (NM)
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Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 12:54pm |
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I got a couple of old Mile Marker winches at an auction,,, neither of them worked,, so I tear into them, an the motors are permanent magnet type motors an they had been HOT....the magnets were busted up, an I couldn't find any replacement motors,,,so their in the junk pile....
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shameless dude
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Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 1:42pm |
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so did you get the manifold?
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JC-WI
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Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 1:59pm |
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Shameless, DJ mighta forgot about haven a manifold to look at when he saw that Badlands winch... He shore conveniently forgot about tellin us about the manifold didn't he... other than he was going to go an look at that "might have manifold"...
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He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that."
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desertjoe
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Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 2:18pm |
Chit,,,Guys,,,and I did flat azz forget bout the friggin manifold,,,,, Me and that older fellar hit it off so good,,,he had his wife bring is some ice cold tea and we shot the chit for two hours in his air conditioned shop checkin out all them old tractors he was workin on for other peoples. I helped him figure how all them pieces go on the brakes on a (gasp) ford trk cause he had forgot, it being a long time he had tore it apart. ,,,,,chit,,hope ole Shameless ain't readin this,,,,,  Anyways,,I learnt something prolly not very many others know, is thet Chevrolet made a few tractors,,,he had one but had sold it a few weeks ago and it was headed to,,,,,,,,you guessed it,,,goin to Nebraska,,,,who knew,,,?? Anyways I'ma go back up there next week,,,see what other goodies he gots that he don't need no more,,,,,  ,,,,AND the manifold,,,, OOppppssss,,almost forgot this one,,,the old fellar gots an Allis C and a CA in pretty good shape he wants to sell,,if any interest,,I'll ask him how much,,,,
Edited by desertjoe - 19 Jul 2019 at 2:23pm
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JohnCO
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Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 2:26pm |
Actually it was GM that made the Sampson, looked like a copy of a Fordson.
So Joe, are you telling us you got so excited with the winch deal you forgot about the manifold?
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desertjoe
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Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 2:30pm |
OH CHIT,,,John,,,you got the tater,,,you did,,,,actually I did forget but it was the great conversations we were havin and then the ice cold tea his Miss's brought us,,,,I asked for several refills as she was a looker,,she was,,,!!! THAS why I forgot,,,,
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DougG
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Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 3:47pm |
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Got on of them , its 6 years old, worked good for 2 years then quit ended up replacing all the cables as they were corroded from the inside, works great since then never had motor issues
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 5:10pm |
DJ.. just use Google ' badland wich modelnumber parts' and you'll get everything you need.. diagrams, teardown, parts, etc...
As for the manifold... welcome to my club... I got sidetracked about 4-6 times today and STILL ain't done what I was supposed to do at 7 this morning.. AND now I've fergotten what it was.. sigh.... Jay
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Ken(MI)
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Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 8:47pm |
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I've had several, just cooked the first one a few weeks back, going back to HF and get a replacement since I had the protection plan on it. Excellent product for the money, after owning two "Ramsey made in USA, wrecker duty winches" that failed miserably in only a couple years and cost north of two grand each, I figured it would be cheaper to just buy these and throw em away if they died. First one lasted five years and sole it with the truck it was on. Second lasted three years and went with the trailer it was on when somebody decided they needed it worse than me. Third one died Winching a 6000# non-rolling load onto the trailer in 100 degree weather with bad batteries in the remote which caused it to run intermittenly, abuse at it's best, but I had no choice. All were 12,000# capacity, don't know anything about what causes yours not to run, but if you can fix it, you should be happy.
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JW in MO
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Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 9:03pm |
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I don't know what those brush holders look like but here's a trick you can try to temporarily insulate them in case its a crack that's causing the short in the positive side. Get in to your loving brides fingernail polish, take the holders out and paint them with it, put them in and check if they are still grounded. Back in my miserable days of working on oil furnaces I used to paint the ceramic on the electrodes on weekends to get a customer heat until the supply house opened on Monday.
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desertjoe
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Posted: 20 Jul 2019 at 2:47am |
Well,,I Might get a repreive on the Badlands winch,,,the founder of Harbor Freight (Eric Smidgt) sent me an email yesterday Thankin me for all the business I have given them and included some 25% OFF coupons for the family,,,!! He specifically asked if there was Anything he could help with any issues I might have,,,,,all I had to do is ask,,,,sounds like a heck of a guy, he does,,,, Anyway, I sent him an Email informing him of the issues with the Badlands winch and the un-availability of repair parts here in the USA. Told him I had already talked to a tech at HF in Calif and he told me there WERE repair parts available but I would have to wait 2-4 weeks to ship from factory in China, and he wasn't too keen on orderin em for me,,,SO,,I did mention that in my Email to the CEO. Guess we'll see how truthful he is bout wantin to help in the next week or so,,,,
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desertjoe
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Posted: 20 Jul 2019 at 3:11am |
Hey JW,,,thas a great idea,,!!! I went the long way on this one yesterday as I made some "insulators" on my lathe out of a piece of Delrin I had left over,,,wisht you'lda sent me thet idea yesterday as It would of made this lots easier,,,, (gonna have to get my dang phone to upload pics!!) I think I remember ole LEOP sayin he's an EE and I bet he can clear this up for me,,,, Ya see,, insulating the positive brushes from the brush holder,,goes away when you slip the armature into the case,,and place BOTH sets of brushes on the armature,,,,NOW,,you gots continuity from the positive brushes "TO" the armature AND to the negative brushes and the whole brush assembly AND even the case as the negative brushes are directly bolted to the case.,,,,!!! Them Chi-coms can come up with some doozzies,,,,I'll say,,,, SOOooo,,how in the heck do these motors operate,,,,?? I'm thinkin the positive and the negative posts are hooked up but kept electrically apart within the 4 position solenoid until you work the handheld remote to activate the solenoid to either the forward or reverse position,,,??? Any Electrical Engineers out there,,,??
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DiyDave
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Posted: 20 Jul 2019 at 4:51am |
This may be apples and oranges, but are you sure the fields aren't shorted to the case? We hadda rebuilder, around here, years ago, used to give away matchbooks, as his promotional item. He also used them to insulate, between the fields and case. they usually lasted just long enough, to cover the warrantee period...
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 20 Jul 2019 at 5:32am |
DJ I assume you've got some kind of parts diagram from HF so it'd kinda show an exploded view of how it goes together. One thing about 'offshore' products is that only the minimal pieces are made to make the gizmo ! That' how profits are made... Without actually seeing it in person(pix are good but...) I suspect a 'short' to the case. You need to remember that for the winch to reverse, all the electrical is 'floating'( no connection to case or ground. A wiring diagram should show this. Jay
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desertjoe
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Posted: 20 Jul 2019 at 10:15am |
Hey Dave,,yeah,,that was my first'est thought , that the fields were shorted to the case,,but that ain't the case, and the both of them are very tight to the case but NOT shorted to the case. . But you see what I'm trying to say in that,,soon as you slide the armature into the case and snap the brushes onto the part of the armature where they ride,,,then the armature actually becomes the means of tiein BOTH the positive AND the negative sides together thru the brushes themselves,,!! The motor has 4 threaded lugs, 1 grd lug, 1 positive lug, 1 lug for forward and 1 lug for reverse. HF is susspossed to email me an owners manual that has a wiring diagram and I'm thinkin the positive from the battery does NOT go directly on the positive lug of the motor but,,instead,, to "a specific" lug on the special 4 lug solenoid. This solenoid is huge compared to a regular automotive solenoid. The forward and the reverse lugs on the motor are also wired to this solenoid. then when you hit the trigger for "forward" the solenoid activates the positive lug on the motor WITH the forward lug of the solenoid,,,,make sense,,,????
Well,,Jay,,I'm hopin that the dude I talked to at HF corp was talkin truths in that parts are availab;le just takes longer to get em and I can wait. I have no clue how it reverses but them ChiComs do manage to copy the US designs plus a few of their own. Gonna call em again this AM for my promised manual,,,,,,
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chaskaduo
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Posted: 20 Jul 2019 at 11:38am |
Joe this is the owners manual, it has a parts diagram and list but no actual wiring diagram. This is probably what HB will Email ya. HTH
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1938 B, 79 Dynamark 11/36 6spd, 95 Weed-Eater 16hp, 2010 Bolens 14hp
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 20 Jul 2019 at 12:04pm |
The 'special' solenoid is probably 2 Form C contactors wired as an H-bridge. +12 goes to the Normally open contact of the contactors(solenoids or relays) The motor is wired to the Commons of the contactors Ground goes to the Normally closed contacts of the contactors Operation is simple At rest( no power) the motor leads are both connect to ground and each other. This forms an 'electric brake' so the winch will not rotate Apply power to the 'in' contactor and is allows +12 to go to one side of the motor while the other is grounded, so the motor spins one direction Apply power to the 'out' contactor, and the motor spins backwards.... You can Google images 'winch H bridge wiring' and a zillion hits come up. They'll be pretty pictures, easy to understand.
Hopefully this is 'clearer than mud'.
The key is that the motor's two leads are NOT connected to the case.
Jay
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shameless dude
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Posted: 20 Jul 2019 at 12:46pm |
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why don't you just buy my winch? can put it on the same trailer as the Chevy/Allis! I can lift it onto the trailer with the crane, and you can unload it with yer loader/backhoe. has about a 100 ft of 3/4 inch cable and a BIG hook on it. sets ina steel cage of 1/2 inch angle iron. I was always gonna make it so I could carry it ona 3-pt. another project that didn't gits done! but I know ole Joe gots all kinds of time!
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JC-WI
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Posted: 20 Jul 2019 at 1:23pm |
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One thing for sure, ifn that thing was grounded at some point, and the fellow closed the contacts, there woulda been smoke rollin from somewhere.... and possibly meltd parts... now if contactsa werecorroded or and not making contact, then you got open circuit.... check for bad connections that hold just enough current for your meter, but not enough to spin the wench...ah er the winch.
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He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that."
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desertjoe
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Posted: 20 Jul 2019 at 7:47pm |
Yep,,Jay,,thas kinda how I had decided the thing had to operate. I started off thinkin to hook the positive from the battery to the red post on the motor, but it let me know pretty quick that was a no-no. The power to that post has to come from the solenoid same time as it goes to either the "in" or the "out" post on the motor,,,,,, NOW,,if I wanted to jump the motor, just to check it out, I would hook the negative cable from a 12 volt battery to the ground post on the motor,,,then hook the positive cable from the battery to either the IN or the OUT post on motor ,,,then jump from that post to the red post on the motor,,,and the motor should run,,,,right? I DO NOT think the motor is bad , but rather the solenoid or the forward/reverse switch is the culprit,,,,,?? Hey Chask,,,,many thanks for the link to the manual. The wiring diagram is on page 9,,,sure wisht they'd included a wiring schematic. Again,,,many thanks ,,Guy,,!!!
Actually JC,,the inside of the motor was exceptionally clean with no rust anywhere,,,so I'm thnkful for that. All the screws and registers have rubber seals,,I guess some people are gonna be runnin these winches knee deeo in mud and chit,,,,,
HOLY'IST CHIT,,Shameless,,,100 feet of 3/4" wire rope,,,,3/4" wire rope,,,?? what was you gonna be pullin with thet thing,,,??? Thet winch must be a monster,,chit it prolly heavier that the whole friggin trailer,,,!! You just watch,,,I'ma gonna fix this thing 'fore too long what with all this excellant help I'm gettin
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 20 Jul 2019 at 8:41pm |
sh.. er sigh... I had a look at the wiring diagram and they do things 'differently' than what I'd assumed..
I 'think' the yellow and black from the 'solenoid box' are really the field winding connections(F1, F2), the red is the armature(A1) and the black the other armature connection(A2)
It'd be a 'series wound' motor.. +12---F1------F2---A1-----A2---Ground
If you swap F1 and F2, the motor will spin the other way. I'd have to see inside the 'solenoid box' t figure out what magic they're pulling but that's my guess
update. OK I worked out there's probably an 'H-bridge' inside the box to reverse the field winding. I scratched that on paper and it looks good..
Hopefully you'll get it running right, if not, well, we're all here for you !
Jay
Edited by jaybmiller - 21 Jul 2019 at 5:40am
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chaskaduo
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Posted: 21 Jul 2019 at 8:02am |
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Now how the heck did I miss that diagram on page 9. These good for nuttin eyeballs, better take em in for a new set.
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1938 B, 79 Dynamark 11/36 6spd, 95 Weed-Eater 16hp, 2010 Bolens 14hp
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Ted J
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Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 10:51am |
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Well look at it this way DJ,,,,,,,,,,,you only wasted $20 on it. And you had fun takin it apart an getting an education on ChiCom junk. I just bought one of them new. Let's hope mine works for a while.....
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