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190xt hard start

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ebowman View Drop Down
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Joined: 06 Sep 2018
Location: Kirklin, IN
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    Posted: 29 Apr 2019 at 9:05pm
So by now you have seen that the tractor runs. However it starts hard after been setting overnight. Don’t criticize how long I stay on starter just trying to show how hard it is. I shut it off the start back up. Let me know your thoughts

Thanks

https://youtu.be/-cEeSCagQos
WD45, '62 D17 Diesel, '65 190XTD, '74 7030, 1958 Roto-Baler
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Bank Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 2019 at 10:28pm
Could be sucking air somewhere over night. Check all fuel lines and fittings to see if they are tight and what condition are the return lines in?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MACK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 7:14am
Degree in check valve of primer. Smoked good for a while. Delivery valve leaking in pump. Pump head worn out. Pump timing too advanced. Low compression.
MACK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calico190xt68 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 8:31am
I exchanged some texts on this and I suggested that the primer pump be rebuilt as a first step.  I think autocorrect got Mack,  but the "Debris before the primer pump" is also easy to figure out.  He has some fuel leaks which makes me believe Redbank is onto something.  As well, the pump may or may not have been rebuilt by someone who knew what they were doing. 

I suggest fixing all leaks, rebuild the primer pump, check fuel flow before and after primer, try some adjusting of the pump if you can.  At that point, you are simply left with a bad pump issue.  That's where I ended up with a bad pump, but turns out my fuel flow was bad.   Part of the fuel lines needed to be replaced, and gunk in the tank was stopping up sediment bowls, and one sediment bowl had the needle valve screwed up.  It is a good exercise regardless. 

I think that the overnight fuel leaking is a good idea to pursue because it appears once the thing gets started it runs pretty good.  My pump eventually got to where it wouldn't run the tractor without going up and down on the idling or even start at all.  That doesn't appear to be the problem.

After all of the good work you put into this restore, we all sure want to see it run good for you!  Let us know what ends up being when you can.
80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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calico190xt68 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calico190xt68 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 8:32am
Oh and I sure hope it isn't low compression after the engine rebuild!
80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote injpumpEd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 8:54am
Any fuel leak can contribute to draining down and losing prime.
210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 9:12am
Looks like it gets fuel delivered from the get-go to me. Why not use the manifold heater for 60 seconds?? and save on the starter time...……  I'll bet once you get it running and warm it up it is good for the rest of the day, right ??   retarding injection pump timing would help a little but may hurt on top end running.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ebowman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 9:48am
Loving the conversation!! Injection pump and injectors were rebuilt few years ago. I'm guessing 600-800 hours on rebuild. The work was done by Turbo Diesel in Indianapolis. I have a 2nd cousin working there now and have tried to find the old work order from the pump with no luck. I have not heard great reviews of them in recent years. I personally don't do enough business there to know. 

I do have a couple leaks... #6 injection line shows signs of of a very small leak at the pump. I have tried 3 sets of washers at the pump (2 new sets and 1 old copper set) and a new banjo bolt. I found a leak on the slotted bolt on the back of the pump (steel washer with rubber insert) and believe I got that fixed. However, it is possible that it is still the culprit on the injector line. Injector 3 and 4 are showing signs of a leak. On the overhaul, I installed new seals and the head was spotless. I did fire the tractor before "caulking" in the valve cover gasket so I could recheck the valve clearance and oil was pouring out then. Currently I see no leaks from the valve cover but cylinder 3 and 4 injector dust seals are wet, the others are all dry. 

I have spent enough on this and the fuel system and hydraulic pump is the only thing not touched. I am just looking for what I probably believe to be the obvious, I should have sent the pump and injectors to Ed in January. I haven't messed with the primer. It will not prime the system. I primed it by cracking the inlet line and waiting for fuel.

Am I correct in my thinking? 

I have talked to him about what it was doing but hopefully the video will tell the story.

I really appreciate the thoughts!! Thanks Mike for thinking as hard as I have!
WD45, '62 D17 Diesel, '65 190XTD, '74 7030, 1958 Roto-Baler
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ebowman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 9:51am
Dr. Allis you are correct fires right up during the day. Just the initial start is hard
WD45, '62 D17 Diesel, '65 190XTD, '74 7030, 1958 Roto-Baler
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 10:09am
And you are NOT using the manifold heater, correct ??  Which would be a very easy and CHEAP test to see if it helps with cold starting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote injpumpEd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 10:18am
After watching the vid, I'm with Dr, it's not losing prime, it's just a cold engine. It will be low on compression until you take it out and work it, and get the rings seated. I did an Ol 1750 here as a side project a couple of years ago, and it was same way. Use manifold heater really helped. I took it to my buddy's shop and ran on dyno a little while and it made a big difference after that. 
210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ebowman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 11:08am
Awesome. Thanks guys. I just hooked up heater Sunday. It tested good on the bench. Might have to wait for hay season to work it hard

Ed. I need to get a primer rebuild from you
WD45, '62 D17 Diesel, '65 190XTD, '74 7030, 1958 Roto-Baler
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 11:18am
About the "overhaul"...…...new pistons and sleeves??  new valves, guides and seats installed to the minimum height ??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calico190xt68 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 11:31am
I watched his other video and it looks like everything was new.  Certainly sleeves and pistons.

I am curious about how many hours the expected break-in time would be to see the low compression issue go away?  10 hours or more like 50 hours?  I hope to do this same restore some day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ebowman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 11:40am
Crank turned. New bearings, sleeves, pistons. Cam bearings. 8 new valves 6 new seats. Reground what wasn’t replaced. Guides knurled. Surface planed. New crank, cam, hydraulic drive gears. New water pump. New clutch kit from Rick. Flywheel resurfaced. Rods reworked.

Machine shop was really good. Had to replace valve seats cause intake was to deep in head and previous person had ground everything to 45*

I was not using air heater in video
WD45, '62 D17 Diesel, '65 190XTD, '74 7030, 1958 Roto-Baler
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Don(MO) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 1:41pm
I'd be finding a dyno or if you have a grinder/mixer grind two or three loads of feed to seat the rings right away.
3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ebowman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 5:46pm
Update. 63* here this evening. I held the air heater on for 60 seconds. Air tube was warm! And then turned the key to start. It fire right up with about 2 revolutions of crankshaft.

Thank you all for helping me with this. Hopefully I can get it on the neighbors feed grinder this weekend.

Special thanks the Dr and Ed for the cold start low compression “fix”
And I will keep working to fix all the little weeps.
WD45, '62 D17 Diesel, '65 190XTD, '74 7030, 1958 Roto-Baler
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 6:35pm
You might find 30 seconds is enough at 60 degrees. Only your experimenting will tell.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calico190xt68 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 8:04pm
I am going to make a visit to your farm as soon as I can to see this bad boy! 

This forum is super helpful for tough issues.  It amazes me guys like Mack, Dr Allis, Don and Ed can figure this stuff out without really seeing it.  If two or three loads of grinding feed would seat the rings, then I am guessing it is 5 hours or so of use?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AC720Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 8:34pm
My 190 was hard to start below 60 degrees and lopped at idle. Shot a video to Ed and he recommended I send it to him for a possible rebuild. Well, turns out the pump was a mess, Ed rebuilt it and its like a new tractor. It will start right up at 50 degrees with no heater as a test although I always hit the heater to make it easier. Ed will always be my pump man as long as he keeps on rebuilding them. I have obtained so much knowledge from so many on this sight, but these guys stand out. Thanks to all when I needed help because I’ve got a sweet XT with their help.
1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MACK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 10:07pm
If you watch the video, it smokes a lot until it almost starts, then a lot of the smoke goes away. Makes me think it uses the fuel that was in transfer pump, then looses some of the fuel.        MACK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calico190xt68 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 10:24pm
Agreed ac720man.   Ed fixed me up too.   I wish I could deinstall my clutch and mail it to him to fix, but that problem isn't that simple.   

I took the time to read the manual, and it suggests 50 hours of break-in at low load to seat the rings.  That's a lot of hours but I guess that's what you need to do.  Ebowman needs to get it broke in next.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lon(MN) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2019 at 6:23am
Mine starts that way also. I plug my engine heater in for an hour and then it starts real well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote injpumpEd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2019 at 8:10am
Thanks for all the kind words guys! I just remembered one more thing he needs to think of, using break in oil. Todays oils have such good additive packages for anti-wear, that fresh engines have a hard time getting things seated. During break in, we need a small amount of controlled wear in to happen, which seals the cylinders up. JD is a great place to get it, Agco dealers have it, and I also sell it from Schaeffer. 
Calico, Rick Corder on here is the clutch master, not me lol!
210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alvin M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2019 at 8:33am
I used the 16.3:1 high compression and put values 010 closer to pistons they start mush batter
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ebowman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2019 at 7:23pm
Thanks for the tip Ed. I used NAPA 30 weight non detergent. Is that one ok or should I have spent the money on John Deere?
WD45, '62 D17 Diesel, '65 190XTD, '74 7030, 1958 Roto-Baler
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote injpumpEd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2019 at 7:15am
I don't know what that exactly is. That type of oil is generally for non filtered engines like lawn mowers. Break in oil is not a non detergent oil, that I'm aware of. It is usually a straight 30wt oil with a lesser anti-wear additive package. It's probably ok, just get it under a partial load. 

Edited by injpumpEd - 02 May 2019 at 7:16am
210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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