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conquest87tsi 
Bronze Level
Joined: 14 Jul 2018
Location: Minnesota
Points: 4
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 Topic: D17 Ignition Points
Posted: 25 Jan 2019 at 8:19pm |
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I have had my D17 Series IV for just under two years now. It was starting to develop a miss so I decided to take a look at the points. They were almost toast so I ordered A&I brand replacements. I recieved them today and installed them and set the gap according to the manual. Started her up and it ran roughly for a short time and died. I started it back up with the timing light attached and it was missing like every other spark. I eventually reinstalled the old points and adjusted the gap. I was then able to check and adjust timing. It purrs like a kitten, but the points are almost shot.
My question is, is there something else suspect that wouldn’t rear it’s head until I installed new points? I replaced the coil and wires when I got the tractor.?Or is it just allergic to the Chinese parts? I mean she has been forgiving so far. There is a metric bolt in the rain cap and the alternator is chinaman. Maybe two unAmerican parts is the cut off.
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Albert
Silver Level
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: NW MO
Points: 410
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Posted: 25 Jan 2019 at 8:34pm |
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AGCO ones are USA made but I wright off about one out of four sets sold. I just cringe every time a customer needs a set.
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Sugarmaker
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Joined: 12 Jul 2013
Location: Albion PA
Points: 8436
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Posted: 25 Jan 2019 at 8:48pm |
Just a thought? Did you clean the new points? I have forgotten to do this a couple times and have to run a dollar bill through them. Regards, Chris
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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DaveKamp
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 5975
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Posted: 25 Jan 2019 at 9:07pm |
Yes... points and condensers nowdays are imported and MISERABLE....
...but there IS something else...
Worn distributor shaft bushing... it'll make setting up dwell a real nightmare.
Putting a Pertronix Ignitor on it, with the appropriate matching coil will make lots of problems go away... that's what I did.
Other thing you'll probably run into eventually... ignition switch IGNITION contact in START position wears out... you'll turn the key, and get no spark, but release it, it'll fire and kick back.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Dave(inMA)
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Grafton, MA
Points: 2399
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Posted: 25 Jan 2019 at 9:21pm |
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Or have Steve Barbato at B&B rebuild the dissy - if you've got slop in the shaft. That said, a fair proportion of the imported points and condensers are junk. Or you might have done what I did: left out the spring steel band that makes the points arm snap back for the next fire! (The spring was missing from the box....leaving just the copper band to move the arm - or try to.) Tractor ran, just did not run well!
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WC, CA, D14, WD45
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conquest87tsi
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Joined: 14 Jul 2018
Location: Minnesota
Points: 4
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Posted: 25 Jan 2019 at 9:37pm |
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Thanks for the reply’s! There is a small amount of play in the shaft, but I have been able set the “old” points correctly twice now successfully and it runs great. I just can’t get it to run on new points. Full disclosure, before trying these A&I points I tried some Chinese ones I point from Steiner over a year ago and didn’t install them. I tried them last weekend with almost identical results to the A&I ones. I ended up reinstalling the old ones and set the timing and it ran awesome. Spent 6 total hours moving snow with it since then with no issue.
I just couldn’t believe two sets of new points were junk.
Another full disclosure: I am an AGCO employee and in the past was more apt to buy AGCO brand parts as we could get them from Batavia at cost. They pulled this incentive right after I got a seat and a bunch of service parts for the 190XT I picked up this summer. I guess I’ll have to bite the bullet and call the stealership tomorrow and order a couple sets of points.
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conquest87tsi
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Joined: 14 Jul 2018
Location: Minnesota
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Posted: 25 Jan 2019 at 9:43pm |
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Dave, I didn’t forget the steel piece, but neither of the new points had the copper strip like the old one. Also, the tension on the steel strip on the new ones is much higher than the old one. Not sure how that would effect things. Just something I noticed.
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Brian Jasper co. Ia
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Prairie City Ia
Points: 10508
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Posted: 25 Jan 2019 at 9:54pm |
If your shaft has play, you cannot correctly gap the points. As the shaft wobbles in the worn bushing, your point gap (dwell angle) changes. When the point gap changes, so does your timing. That bushing is available from DJS if you can't get one through Agco or don't like the price. It's easy to change, the hard part is driving the pin out of the gear. That said, the quality of points and condenser has taken a nosedive. Clean the points with a piece of the cardboard box, a dollar bill, anything to remove the oily coating, then put the old condenser back in.
Edited by Brian Jasper co. Ia - 25 Jan 2019 at 9:56pm
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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Bill Deppe/AC Salvag
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Maquoketa, Iowa
Points: 973
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Posted: 25 Jan 2019 at 10:37pm |
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I can recall from 'many' years ago reading instructions to clean points with something like alcohol, this was supposedly something to do with ridding any oil film due to processing
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dawntreader74
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Joined: 28 Oct 2013
Location: Manteno
Points: 1770
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Posted: 25 Jan 2019 at 10:50pm |
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yes;bill;; you hit it on the head; don't heart to clean them with some 320 paper after that' then set them.
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Fred in Pa
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Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Location: Hanover Pa.
Points: 9210
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Posted: 26 Jan 2019 at 5:31am |
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Blue Streak points & cond. are they only ones I use ( ones from NAPA are good also.) .If I have a customer that has any others that they bought I will not use them .
Edited by Fred in Pa - 26 Jan 2019 at 5:34am
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He who dies with the most toys is,
nonetheless ,still dead.
If all else fails ,Read all that is PRINTED.
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PaulB
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Rocky Ridge Md
Points: 4950
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Posted: 26 Jan 2019 at 5:58am |
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I don't even waste my time with points and condensers anymore. They are the first ting I remove when I buy a tractor, The second is the rim rusting Calcium Chloride in the tires. Those two things cause more problems than everything else combined.
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If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
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Steve in NJ
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Andover, NJ
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Posted: 26 Jan 2019 at 8:05am |
As Fred mentioned, Blue Streak points are the best. That's all we sell. If you have .001-.003" side to side play in the Distributor mainshaft, it's time for a rebuild. Even if you put a Pertronix E.I. in it, fix the Distributor first! A wobbly mainshaft will also make the E.I. misfire if the module can't pickup the magnetic signal as it passes by everytime. More critical with a set of points because the point set relies on the rub block to keep the dwell angle correct. A wobbly mainshaft will make the rub block wear uneven and the dwell is eventually thrown off again resulitng in poor engine performance. You don't need to have a Pertronix coil with their E.I. as long as you have the correct ohm coil for your application. Four cylinders on 12V's need 2.7-3.3 ohms of resistance in the Ignition circuit in order for the engine to run correctly. Most oversea's points and condensers are pretty much junk. One reason why we sell a lot of the E.I.'s. Customer's just don't want to deal with the point issue anymore..... HTH Steve@B&B
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39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
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GregLawlerMinn
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Lawler, Mn
Points: 1226
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Posted: 26 Jan 2019 at 7:33pm |
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I second the suggestions to install the Petronix EI and forget the points.
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What this country needs is more unemployed politicians-and lawyers.
Currently have: 1 D14 and a D15S2.
With new owners: 2Bs,9CAs,1WD,2 D12s,5D14s,3D15S2s, 2D17SIVs,D17D,1D19D;1 Unstyled WC
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TimNearFortWorth
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Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 9:48am |
Blue Streak from NAPA all the way, last three done with w/ points, condenser, wires and new or cleaned up plugs have made quite a difference including one very tired 160 c.i. Remember when pulling any of the "dated" condenser units, save em' or you'll wish you did down the road!
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Don(MO)
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Bates City MO.
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Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 10:58am |
 Fred in Pa wrote:
Blue Streak points & cond. are they only ones I use ( ones from NAPA are good also.) .If I have a customer that has any others that they bought I will not use them .
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Fred is spot on! I will not put junk in the engine, if customer brings that junk in my shop it is put in the tool box not in the engine...... It's just not worth the time to mess with bad from the factory parts.
Edited by Don(MO) - 27 Jan 2019 at 11:59pm
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3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep.
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Jim.ME
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Location: Maine
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Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 12:39pm |
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Be sure to get the premium Blue Streak points. Standard now has a "T" line that is supposed to be value priced. They look like most of the run of the mill points out there, plain white rubbing block, no copper strip, no lube wiper. I have seen them being advertised as Blue Streak; likely just because they are from Standard.
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DaveKamp
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 5975
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Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 11:23pm |
conquest87tsi wrote:
Dave, I didn’t forget the steel piece, but neither of the new points had the copper strip like the old one. Also, the tension on the steel strip on the new ones is much higher than the old one. Not sure how that would effect things. Just something I noticed. |
The tension being higher pushes the shaft to one side of the worn bushing, and causes your misfire, as the dwell and timing of that event is off.
With a weak spring, the distributor shaft stays more on center, and doesn't 'walk' around the ID of the bushing.
Spring tension is an elusive thing to resolve. --Too much tension wears the rubbing block and point cam, and puts excessive side-load on the bushing.
--Too little tension on the points causes them to not track the point cam lobe, causing poor dwell, erratic timing, and in most cases, very poor point contact pressure.
Which brings up an important thing: Contact pressure is absolutely necessary for good, stable ignition events. Low pressure means the contacts don't seat hard enough to keep clean... seat pressure not only brings the contacts together, it makes them flex slightly, causing them to self-clean. If the spring is weak, you'll find yourself constantly cleaning and adusting them to keep it right.
Springs made now, are different from springs made THEN.
Back when... spring material was rolled from an alloy that had a hardening process that occurred basically after all the work to manufacture was done. This means that when a part comes off the assembly line, it's springs' tension will be exact, as it should be, for it's serviceable life.
A more recent philosophy, is that the spring material's hardening and tension occurs in several stages... through alloy, rolling, heat treatment, and finally, WORKING. --- That means that when you INSTALL the points, the tension may be at one level, and as time goes by, the working cycles cause it to self-harden... so... the attitude of this more recent philosophy has basically taken over, not just in springs, but in other things... gears are a good example.
There's a pair of laundry-baskets full of justifications, but the thing to remember, is that what you get out of the box, and what you SHOULD have once it's been worn in, are two different things. If you happen to purchase a new pistol, you may find that the slide or hammer spring to be WAY tight, until you get a couple boxes of rounds pushed through it, just for that reason.
Another thing to realize, is that in SOME ignitions, the actual coiil current passes THROUGH the spring. A coil problem, or an ignition key left on, will rapidly overheat the spring, causing TWO things... first, a sacked-out spring... and second, a high resistance in that steel... both make for really bad ignition system performance. This is why I stress good spring tension as a first-look check of the points.
Food for thought... 
And both of these philosophies
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Dave(inMA)
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Location: Grafton, MA
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Posted: 28 Jan 2019 at 8:22am |
conquest87tsi wrote:
Dave, I didn’t forget the steel piece, but neither of the new points had the copper strip like the old one. Also, the tension on the steel strip on the new ones is much higher than the old one. Not sure how that would effect things. Just something I noticed. |
I can't add anything to Dave Kamp's discussion of spring tension, but I would think that not having the copper conducting strip is a bad idea. I've seen copper and aluminium house wire but never steel. That said, I'm no expert - but I'm sure that there are experts on here who can comment further. Also, Dave's point about excess tension pushing a shaft with worn bushings makes sense to me. Finally, Steve's comment about shaft wobble is worth paying attention to. The challenge I have is measuring the amount of slop - my fingers aren't likely able to know when it's more than the 0.003" Steve mentioned!
Dave
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WC, CA, D14, WD45
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