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major backfiring

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drobCA View Drop Down
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    Posted: 01 Jun 2018 at 8:05pm
I'm trying to finish off a refurb of an old Ferguson TE20 I  helped a high school Ag class with.

2 days ago it ran for a minute,  overchoked.
had to shut it off as it was not showing any oil pressure.
I have now confirmed is does have oil pressure - it is the gauge that's bad.
hooked up a known good gauge and it did register some pressure.

now with new points, condenser, rotor, cap & plug wires and plugs it backfires profusely but will not run.

we confirmed TDC rotor position, and then even did a slow wide range rotation of the distributor to way advance and way retard and back again.
the effect was eventual elimination of back fire in both directions, but no self-sustained running.

wondering if it might be either gas starved or too rich.  carb is brand new.

here's the kicker - teacher insists we get it running without exhaust pipe & muffler before he takes it to a shop to get the pipe repent to the correct angle.
could it need that back pressure to run correctly?

off-color I know, but this forum has been a proven source of real knowledge and now I desperately need that.
thanks for any ideas on tests or what do next.


3 Ford 8N's I loan to neighbors, but the '52CA, '41B and little B1 I do not.
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Larry in NC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Larry in NC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2018 at 8:14pm
Sounds like the spark plug wires are crossed.  Firing order is 1 3 4 2  

Edited by Larry in NC - 01 Jun 2018 at 8:26pm
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drobCA View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drobCA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2018 at 8:41pm
thanks,  I did recheck that.
and on the TE20 block it's right there in big cast-in numbers: 1. 3. 4. 2.
even the kids can't miss that...Wink
3 Ford 8N's I loan to neighbors, but the '52CA, '41B and little B1 I do not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveM C/IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2018 at 9:52pm
when you say the carb is brand new....I worry that may be the problem and it's ruled out because it's new.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rasman57 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2018 at 10:04pm
How deep into the engine did the refurb go?  Anything to possibly change timing sequence.....  You indicated it ran good for a bit..was that with all the new tuneup parts or after?    Eliminating backfire but no sustained running  you said....was it just not backfiring while cranking or did it actually run?   Never had one that needed a muffler to fire.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drobCA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2018 at 10:35pm
yeah, Steve - unfortunately new does not always equal good to go.
I strongly suspect the carb - so I plan to trade out a known good one off one of the 8Ns to see what happens, and meanwhile disassemble the new one and check the jets for blockage.

rasman - OHV engine, we cleaned up and reseated all valves and adjusted to manual specs.  while head was off we did eyeball inspection of cylinders which looked surprisingly clean for how long the tractor had been sitting.
distributor was pulled for a thorough bench cleanup (badly needed) but I guarantee it was reinstalled synched to true TDC.
the brief run was with the old points/condenser/plugs if I remember correctly.
3 Ford 8N's I loan to neighbors, but the '52CA, '41B and little B1 I do not.
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drobCA View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drobCA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2018 at 10:38pm
btw kicking the back tire really hard didn't help at all except it kept me from cussing in front of students... Angry
3 Ford 8N's I loan to neighbors, but the '52CA, '41B and little B1 I do not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HudCo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2018 at 11:24pm
anyone go throught and recheck the valve lash ?  and check that everything really is on tdc when its supposed to be   piston up , pushrods all the way down, rotor in the right spot all at the same time ?  not just parts of of it on tdc on the pionter
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2018 at 11:35pm
"we confirmed TDC rotor position"
That don't mean a thing till you confirm TDC of COMPRESSION stroke. TDC comes around twice in a 4 cycle engine but only one is the fire position.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drobCA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2018 at 11:37pm
hudco - painstakingly yes, rechecked thoroughly which is why I am at a loss for what could be wrong - unless it is carburation.  

and spark is plenty good at the wires... can't verify the plugs are working well tho.
3 Ford 8N's I loan to neighbors, but the '52CA, '41B and little B1 I do not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bradley6874 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 2:56am
1432 is correct going the wright way around the cap check dist rotation
You can wash the dirt off the body but you can’t wash the farmer out of the heart and soul
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 5:19am
I don't see why it would backfire consistently while cranking unless the timing is way off or the ignition wires are run incorrectly.


Did you by chance pull the distributor and re-install it with the rotor not pointing directly at the plug wires?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote B26240 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 5:38am
I'm with the guys who say it's a timing issue as in fireing at wrong times.  Re check everything again, starting with valve lash, with all plugs out turn  engine till it comes up on number one COMPRESSION stroke till the FIRE line is register with pointer. With ignition on and dist. retarded turn dist in the advance direction till you get a spark to number one wire/plug.  Confirm the rest of the wires are (plug) conected to the right plugs. If all this has same result install old cap and rotor and see if that is the problem.  Keep us posted !!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeinLcoMo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 6:41am
Had the same problem with my B that had been sitting for a couple of years. Had it running pretty good for a bit last week and shut it down. Later in  this week I started it and it ran awful. Would not accelerate and backfired when it did pick up rpms. Intake/exhaust manifold gasket had dried out and was sucking air. Had to replace gasket but now runs great.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drobCA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 7:22am
Tuck & others in the timing camp - yep, we pulled the valve cover and watched so we got TDC while both valves closed on #1.  also rechecked all clearances.
then rotated distributor from there - both ways.

a major problem is the darn class bell schedule.  teacher takes attendance, then we have maybe 40 minutes to gather tools and do whatever before bell rings and it's time to put away tools.  
and I have stayed focused on the primary goal, which is to teach the kids.
now this summer that will change to "Get It Running!".

so I will have a chance to pull the manifold and replace the gasket, trade out parts and even ("oh no!") leave in-use tools right there on site & handy - instead of dumped hastily back into wrong drawers.
I will make a tasklist based on input here and work my way through it at my own pace, ignoring the clock.
thanks for any and all suggestions on what to look for & to do.
3 Ford 8N's I loan to neighbors, but the '52CA, '41B and little B1 I do not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tireboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 7:23am
If it ran good before you changed all the ignition parts check the point gap and spark plug wires are in the correct order back track using the old parts. I would start with the condenser and then the cap. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AaronSEIA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 7:29am
You can check the gasket by shooting some ether at it while running.  If it changes rpm you know you have an intake leak.  Doesn't an engine close both valves multiple times per cycle?  Put your finger over the #1 spark plug hole.  When air rushes past your thumb you are on the intake stroke.  Get that stroke at TDC and go from there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drobCA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 7:35am
Tireboy - not saying it "ran good" before... just that it kept running without the starter turning it... for a short time. 
and... I even have a whole brand new complete distributor to try in there before going back to what was there before.  just haven't had time to try that yet.
but just for my own info I want to try it again with the original stuff and trade out condensers since I have a few spares and they are known to be unreliable.


3 Ford 8N's I loan to neighbors, but the '52CA, '41B and little B1 I do not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wekracer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 8:22am
Ignition parts are junk these days. I would try the old points and condenser and see if that helps. It will make you pull your hair out seeming like all sorts of other problems.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve in NJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 9:55am
Timing off or a couple tight valves. If the timing is right where its supposed to be, it shouldn't backfire at all. A tight valve or two would make it run rough and if revved up then pop through the carb or exhaust. Probably off a tooth or two on the timing... HTH
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HudCo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 10:17am
be nice to know if the timing gears do line up . 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drobCA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 12:58pm
yep,  Hud, I've been thinking the same thing since this tractor came in as a parts donor missing a lot of components.
definitely cannot presume former owner left what was there in correct condition.

I want to get a look at the governor - which I am sure needs attention - and to do that on this beast I need to pull off the timing gear cover.
so do an alignment check at the same time. 

now if only the bolts are not rusted in place... sigh...
3 Ford 8N's I loan to neighbors, but the '52CA, '41B and little B1 I do not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 1:31pm
Cleaned up and reseated valves is a term that leaves me scratching my head! It skips over the details of what was actually done.
You might do a compression check to see what you got for your time in cleaning and reseating the valves. Checking or rechecking the valve lash/gap would also be in order.

If you set the engine on true TDC you can loosen the distributor and rotate it back and fourth with the (switch on) watching the points for sparks when the points open. When the points are (just) about to open lock the distributor down and you are in time ready to run assuming that the advance is not hung up/rusted fast. You should be able to check the advance by turning the rotor feeling the advance springs pulling it back. If the advance was checked and taken apart it may not have been assembled back correctly.

A lot of details to check when kids are learning even with a somewhat sharp eye looking on.

Have fun.


Edited by Dick L - 02 Jun 2018 at 1:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drobCA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 1:58pm
Dick - the valve lapping (by hand with suction cup tool) was supervised by the classroom instructor in my absence.
had to replace one broken spring - guides all seemed okay (which surprised me).
compression test then yielded a very even 90psi in all four as minimum, 92 max on #3.
was only slightly below that before.

as always something new & useful from you - never thought of or heard about switch on, rotate distributor and watch for spark at the points.  niiiiice!

proud of the progress with the kids -  I swear some did not know which end of a screwdriver was the handle at the beginning.  now at least they can r&r most components and identify what they do.
3 Ford 8N's I loan to neighbors, but the '52CA, '41B and little B1 I do not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 3:41pm
I have never had confidence in lapping by hand without facing the seats and valves first. To me lapping valves is a last step in checking for a perfect seal after grinding and facing not to just get a seal.


If you have the timing correct with spark and have good compression all that is left to make it run is proper fuel mixture in the firing chamber under compression.

You mentioned wondering about the valve guides. Lapping with a suction cup with sloppy valve guides would let the down pressure on a slight angle move the stem sideways slightly.

You might want to recheck the compression. Others have mentioned the intake gasket leaking being a possibility. Like I said before, have fun, checking the (details)

Edited by Dick L - 02 Jun 2018 at 3:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drobCA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 5:14pm
I don't remember all the factors that contributed to the decision (by the teacher) not to have the head and valves refaced by a machine shop, but I know one was that the guy I used to use retired and sold off all the equipment in his home shop.
anyway, I just used the hand lapping as a cheap & fast substitute so the kids could see the principle (making surfaces match) even though this was just a band-aid approach - if even that.

to me, this is the fun part - as long as there is no deadline (which has now been deferred, thankfully).

don't know yet if I will get to take it home or will still need to work on it at school over the summer.  likely will move it into a different area of the ag program complex - into a nice big air conditioned building with a couple of willing hands when needed.
the ag program runs year round - staff and a few high end students are there at least m-f if not every day.

3 Ford 8N's I loan to neighbors, but the '52CA, '41B and little B1 I do not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 6:04pm
Keep us informed of what you find. Always fun when people dig back thru details to find what was missed. Not near as much fun digging thru your own missed details. Sometimes it seems as though to miss something that obvious you wouldn't be able to recall your own name to miss it.

I am at present training a job setter to set molds, start up the job as well as disassemble molds, change inserts and re assemble the molds. Almost harder work than just doing it myself. I find myself telling him to move over and let me do it rather than repeating instructions in different terms that might help him understand better. Not his fault! I was able to learn one job at a time is something I have to keep reminding myself of.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drobCA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 6:28pm
and, Dick... seeing someone do it right IS good training!
I find telling while doing and then telling while HE is doing to be helpful.
3 Ford 8N's I loan to neighbors, but the '52CA, '41B and little B1 I do not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 8:11pm
Totally agree! been doing that for four months. Trained dozens and dozens of people when I was running 24 hours a day 6 days a week for thirty some years. Never Sunday! Only one job at a time though. Mold work was done in my tool shop rather than part of molding by tool and die people. The last ten years has just been myself and one or two employees running my product rather than other companies products. I did all the mold sets and tool work after getting rid of the last tool maker and foreman. Dixie has been pressing me to train someone to help me since I work from a wheelchair or stool and thinking I am old being only a few days from 80.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drobCA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 8:54pm
if only I were closer... I presume you're looking for someone younger and I'm only 77.
but actually I'm going in a different direction.
I'm going to make a few samples of high end custom furniture made with old growth (fine grain) used lumber and see if I can develop an outlet in Beverly Hills on "Decorator Row".
had some contacts there, will see what happens.
I'm never happier than when I am "making sawdust".
3 Ford 8N's I loan to neighbors, but the '52CA, '41B and little B1 I do not.
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