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Charlie175 
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Location: Shenandoah, VA
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 Topic: 301 HP
Posted: 09 May 2016 at 12:25pm |
What HP can a Non-turbo 301 crank out? Like say in a 180/185? I know they are rated at 64 & 75 HP, but have read that they can run close to 100 hp? or is that wishing?
This would be a stock motor, no mods other than fuel adjustment.
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Charlie
'48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD
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injpumpEd
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Posted: 09 May 2016 at 1:52pm |
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we can adjust fuel system to get way more fuel, but unless you turn more rpm's I'd be surprised if it would exceed 90hp. 190 was 77.20, but at 2200 rpm.
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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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DrAllis
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Posted: 09 May 2016 at 2:23pm |
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I overhauled one mighty One-Ninety is all my years of wrenching. It made just barely the 77 rated HP with pretty heavy smoke and the timing set at 28 degrees and fixed. The later 185's with the pump timing advance were a lot cleaner burning, but I just don't see how one would ever get to the 100 HP number without a turbo.
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WF owner
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Posted: 09 May 2016 at 3:49pm |
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I was dynoing 82 hp. back when I was pulling in the late 70's with a LOT of black smoke.
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tbran
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Posted: 09 May 2016 at 9:27pm |
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I did some night time dyno pulls on the 185 with the bosch injectors lately. These injectors definitely are better naturally aspirated than the AC's. However even here about 85-88 hp is about all one can get - one simply runs out of air with the siamese'd runners in the head and the rpms drop sharply after the needle hits this 85 hp at 2000 rpms on an M&W dyno. More fuel from opening the 2 roller pump yielded only about 5 extra hp over backing out the torque screw. However this is about 10 better than Doc's experience. Busting up the fuel with a good advance really helps.
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When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..
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DrAllis
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Posted: 09 May 2016 at 10:04pm |
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Years ago, I wanted to try and mount a large 2-barrel or mechanical 4-barrel carb ahead of the radiator and provide windshield washer fluid or methanol to it for fuel, and saturate the air going into the engine and see what would happen. I know a guy who just sprayed washer fluid into a naturally aspirated diesel tractor pulling and as soon as he turned it on, the engine died. Doing that on a turbo engine works well, but I think naturally aspirated would work too if it was run thru a carburetor to vaporize it. That way, the 100 HP number might be a reality.
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 09 May 2016 at 10:23pm |
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Kinda like burnin brush piles around hear Tim.LOL!
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Charlie175
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Posted: 10 May 2016 at 5:18am |
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Thank you for the info.
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Charlie
'48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD
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PaulB
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Posted: 10 May 2016 at 6:41am |
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The easiest way to ad HP to a non-turbo diesel is to inject liquid propane. The heat it removes from the air to vaporize the propane shrinks the volume of air allowing more to reach the cylinders and then the lean mixture accelerates the ignition when the diesel in injected. Remember to start with a small amount and only increase the propane in small amounts until you get things working for you. Too much can produce catastrophic results. I mentioned this
to a fellow pulling a R JD about 30 years ago and after awhile he realized I was serious and not full of it. Later has was making about 110 HP from a stock R at stock RPM, although the knocking sounded like thunder. It wasn't long before he found out why the JD engineers added a center main bearing to the 820s.
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If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 10 May 2016 at 9:06am |
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....added a center main....LOL. Bet that hurt
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tractormanpj
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Posted: 10 May 2016 at 9:24am |
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Our 190XT at one time was pumping out about 125hp. It had flames coming out of the muffler!
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tbran
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Posted: 10 May 2016 at 3:47pm |
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propane was used many years ago - however it was not kind to engines at an amount necessary to increase hp on naturally asp engines. You engine theorist out there, would the combustion rate of alcohol cause a knock in a diesel.??? If one had as much diesel to absorb the available air during combustion would any additional fuel help or would it even burn. Or would the substitution of alcohol to an under max fuel engine result in an increase in HP?? Just thinking out loud...
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When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..
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DrAllis
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Posted: 10 May 2016 at 3:50pm |
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I know from experience, a stock 7060 or 7080 will jump 60 PTO HP when spraying windshield washer antifreeze inside the air cleaner. The rate is 12 ounces in 30 seconds. It does seem that when the engine is overfueled more, the alcohol kick becomes less.
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PaulB
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Posted: 10 May 2016 at 4:01pm |
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Turboed engines like the Water/Alcohol mix much more than those without a turbo. The mix will help some with excessive timing to get EGTs down, but won't really do much for HP without a turbo to pressurize and heat the intake charge. Also It would need to vaporize somehow to get it to burn. Alcohol doesn't like to vaporize easily. I'd tried this back in the early 70s and found the propane was much more beneficial and less touchy than getting the Alcohol to start slow and then ramp up. You can easily over fuel a non-turbo diesel. to get more power you need more air. This happens when it removes the heat from the atmospheric air to vaporize the propane.
Hold your hand near a propane leak sometime, you'll get frostbite.
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If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
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Jordan(OH)
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Posted: 10 May 2016 at 4:17pm |
 tbran wrote:
I did some night time dyno pulls on the 185 with the bosch injectors lately. These injectors definitely are better naturally aspirated than the AC's. However even here about 85-88 hp is about all one can get - one simply runs out of air with the siamese'd runners in the head and the rpms drop sharply after the needle hits this 85 hp at 2000 rpms on an M&W dyno. More fuel from opening the 2 roller pump yielded only about 5 extra hp over backing out the torque screw. However this is about 10 better than Doc's experience. Busting up the fuel with a good advance really helps.
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Would those injectors be the same as an 8030? Cause I have a set, and a 180?
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tbran
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Posted: 11 May 2016 at 10:42pm |
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holes are smaller on a 185 but I would bet yes they would increase hp NA.. the head on the pump would have to be good to pop close to 4000 psi... part of the atomization issue. OF course the lines are different as well as the drip.
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When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..
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WD45Diesel57
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Posted: 12 May 2016 at 7:29am |
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when dad bought his 185 new in 1972 they dynoed it and it was cranking 92 at the pto before it was broke in!
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1-B's, 2-C, 2-CA's,2-WF, 1-WC,1-G, 3-WD's, 2-WD45, 1-RC, 1-D17 Diesel, 1-D14, 2-D15,1-D17 row crop,1-D19 gas and All Crop 40,60,66,72,90 and 100
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DrAllis
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Posted: 12 May 2016 at 8:34am |
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Yeah, well......30 degree air temps and an old M&W dyno might reflect that, but it wasn't true.
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DanD
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Posted: 12 May 2016 at 9:46am |
DrAllis wrote:
Yeah, well......30 degree air temps and an old M&W dyno might reflect that, but it wasn't true. |
I am usually skeptical of unusual horsepower reports. I was once at a tractor show where they had a "dyno" set up for guys to test their tractors. Idiot running it would just crank the RPM down as far as it could go and then read the horsepower number. I'll make up numbers here but it was stuff like a stock H Farmall at 60 HP and a 75 HP A John Deere. Stuff like that. I tried to explain to the guy running it how to properly ready the dyno but was call a "stupid a**hole" so I just let everybody believe their fantasies.
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427435
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Posted: 12 May 2016 at 11:07am |
The old dyno's, like M&W, did not measure hp---------------they measured torque (actually, all dyno's measure torque, but the new ones with computers may tell you hp). The dial giving the torque reading was printed with hp numbers, but those numbers were only correct at correct pto speed. Pulling a tractor down below rated pto speed was an old trick that dealers pulled to make their customers feel good. Plus, the numbers on the dial of the old dynos were purposely printed to give a higher reading than what was actually being measured. 
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Mark
B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel,
GTH-L Simplicity
Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not.
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WD45Diesel57
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Posted: 12 May 2016 at 12:45pm |
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Hey I didn't post this to get ridiculed this is just what they did and that's what dad always knew. you guys can believe what you want!
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1-B's, 2-C, 2-CA's,2-WF, 1-WC,1-G, 3-WD's, 2-WD45, 1-RC, 1-D17 Diesel, 1-D14, 2-D15,1-D17 row crop,1-D19 gas and All Crop 40,60,66,72,90 and 100
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DougG
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Posted: 12 May 2016 at 4:43pm |
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Your not getting ridiculed,, just the truth
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DougG
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Posted: 12 May 2016 at 4:44pm |
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Your not getting ridiculed,, just the truth ,these guys will kno
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 12 May 2016 at 6:15pm |
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The only experience with dynos is the M&W that my pump guy has. He reads pressure and gets that card with the sliding piece to read hp. I'm sure he knows the story on dyno tricks but l know him to be honest and trust him. When he built tha A pump for my 8070 he calculated the amount of fuel for desired hp. Looking for 220-240. Afer 20hrs farm use we dynoed it.Twisting the wheel it was climbing past 290 so the fuel screw got turned down. Ended up around 230.It's not tied down or pulling oversized tools so it should live.
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tbran
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Posted: 12 May 2016 at 10:45pm |
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The 301 in stock form will not pull over 80 PTO hp. However if the rpm is lowered to approx. 1800 engine rpm then the dial will wrap around and point to over 100 hp. Without getting into a lot of math, this is what I look for, at WOT start the pull and watch how the pressure goes up in relationship to how the engine or pto speed drops while listening to the engine. An experienced tech can listen and feel and tell you the hp pretty close with the eyes closed as to watching the guage as the hyd valve is closed on the dyno.
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When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..
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injpumpEd
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Posted: 13 May 2016 at 8:11am |
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Tim is describing the torque rise. That is what I try to enhance when setting my customer's pumps/governors. This is what pulls the equipment through the field, and calls on the torque rise in tough spots. You don't want to be constantly overloading it in the field though. That is what shortens engine and drivetrain life!
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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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