125 engine crankshaft endplay.

How much end play is still OK for the 125 engine?

This C is retired from real work.

How much do you have???? ...obviously it was running the way it is, right???

The BE and CE engines only use a half circle thrust bearing, and it is common to find them with end play problems. My '49 B had a bad clunk when I would push the clutch in to start it, and I found about .090" of end play when I checked it out. The babbitt was completely gone from the thrust surface of the bearing, and the crank was chewed up pretty bad as well, so I had it reground and started over. It wasn't cheap, but now it should outlast me.

Brett: Not to hijack this thread, but do the 138, 149 and 160 gas blocks have a full circle thrust bearing. Was wondering if Allis engineers addressed that issue in the later gas blocks. Assuming that the 201 and 226 gas engines had a full thrust bearing set up? Any thoughts?

Whew what a day! Shop infrastructure and tractor work.

The engine has .041" endplay. Not that I have time to fix it now, but advice is welcome.

I am repainting it. I cold water powerewashed it. That worked way better than I was

expecting. 3500psi 15 degree. It seems that almost every seal leaks and had grud build up around it. Is there a technical (or funny) term for that crud? Reminds me of old asphalt. I think we need our own word.

The 138, 149, and 160 CID engines use a full circle thrust bearing at the flywheel end of the crankshaft. The 201 and 226 as found in the WC, WD, and WD45 use a full circle thrust bearing at the front main bearing similar to the BE/CE engine, and the D17 engine moved the thrust bearing to the center main (Maybe this was done when they went to full flow oil filtration?). All of this is from parts manuals, as I have not been into these engines deep enough to have personal experience with them. I have, however been through several CE engines.

BrianC: At .041" endplay, NOW is the time to fix the problem. I'd say you might stand a chance of having a crank that is still in decent shape at this point. With a little luck, you might get away with just replacing your bearings and calling it good. If you continue to run it like that, it will only chew up your crankshaft and cost more to repair down the road. If you're a "shine 'em and line 'em" kind of guy, you might be OK for a little while, but if you like to run the tractor at all it is a ticking time bomb.

I wouldn't consider a half circle thrust bearing to be low tech. Plenty of more modern engines have something similar. I think that it was more an attempt to cut costs than anything. Remember that at one point the B sold for well less than $1000 brand new. Maybe even less than $500, but I don't have my Swinford Bible handy to check that fact right now...

At any rate, the design is perfectly adequate if good oil is used and changed regularly, and the operator does not ride the clutch pedal.

I thought so, Glenn, but didn't want to stick a size 10 in my mouth! I remember reading that it (the B) had gotten much more expensive by the time 1957 came around...

Edited by BrettPhillips - 29 Jun 2012 at 9:17pm

dumb question time, but how do you check the end play, have lower end noise and after reading this thread, watched and can see movement in the front pulley and able to move the crank with pry bar.

Thanks

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BrianC Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 16 Jun 2011 Location: New York Points: 1619	Post Options Post Reply Quote BrianC Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: 125 engine crankshaft endplay. Posted: 27 Jun 2012 at 8:25pm
	How much end play is still OK for the 125 engine? This C is retired from real work.

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Chalmersbob Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Pennsylvania Points: 2122	Post Options Post Reply Quote Chalmersbob Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 27 Jun 2012 at 10:03pm
	My manual wants .001-.005 end thrust clearance. Bob

DrAllis Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21918	Post Options Post Reply Quote DrAllis Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 28 Jun 2012 at 5:45am
	How much do you have???? ...obviously it was running the way it is, right???

CTuckerNWIL Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: NW Illinois Points: 22825	Post Options Post Reply Quote CTuckerNWIL Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 28 Jun 2012 at 8:29am
	I noticed a knock in my CA and had a hard time finding it. It's cause of about .090 end play in the crank. I haven't had the engine running since I found the problem. I think my B is headed in that direction with about .030 end play.
	http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF

BrettPhillips Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Strasburg, VA Points: 808	Post Options Post Reply Quote BrettPhillips Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 28 Jun 2012 at 10:39am
	The BE and CE engines only use a half circle thrust bearing, and it is common to find them with end play problems. My '49 B had a bad clunk when I would push the clutch in to start it, and I found about .090" of end play when I checked it out. The babbitt was completely gone from the thrust surface of the bearing, and the crank was chewed up pretty bad as well, so I had it reground and started over. It wasn't cheap, but now it should outlast me.

GregLawlerMinn Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Lawler, Mn Points: 1226	Post Options Post Reply Quote GregLawlerMinn Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 28 Jun 2012 at 11:52am
	Same experience as Brett on a few 125 engines I rebuilt. Had the front of the crank welded up and reground. The thrust is the lip on the front main, You may be lucky and a new main will eliminate the end play; don't wait too long.
	What this country needs is more unemployed politicians-and lawyers. Currently have: 1 D14 and a D15S2. With new owners: 2Bs,9CAs,1WD,2 D12s,5D14s,3D15S2s, 2D17SIVs,D17D,1D19D;1 Unstyled WC

orangeman Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 1855	Post Options Post Reply Quote orangeman Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 28 Jun 2012 at 4:29pm
	Brett: Not to hijack this thread, but do the 138, 149 and 160 gas blocks have a full circle thrust bearing. Was wondering if Allis engineers addressed that issue in the later gas blocks. Assuming that the 201 and 226 gas engines had a full thrust bearing set up? Any thoughts?

steve(ill) Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 87905	Post Options Post Reply Quote steve(ill) Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 28 Jun 2012 at 4:41pm
	The thrust bearing sets between one crank throw and ??? Is it the back side of a pressed on plate ? there. I remember pulling the plate ? off the crank and machining it .030 to move inward toward the bearing and get back to .004 clearance. THE opposite face was in decent shape, or close enough to use. Crank may not be exactly centered, but the clearance is back to spec... I have done this a couple times, but it was 5-6 years ago. Edited by steve(ill) - 28 Jun 2012 at 4:43pm
	Like them all, but love the "B"s.

BrianC Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 16 Jun 2011 Location: New York Points: 1619	Post Options Post Reply Quote BrianC Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 28 Jun 2012 at 7:31pm
	Whew what a day! Shop infrastructure and tractor work. The engine has .041" endplay. Not that I have time to fix it now, but advice is welcome. I am repainting it. I cold water powerewashed it. That worked way better than I was expecting. 3500psi 15 degree. It seems that almost every seal leaks and had grud build up around it. Is there a technical (or funny) term for that crud? Reminds me of old asphalt. I think we need our own word.

TedBuiskerN.IL. Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Davis, IL. Points: 1959	Post Options Post Reply Quote TedBuiskerN.IL. Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 28 Jun 2012 at 8:06pm
	How about greasephalt or oilphalt.
	Most problems can be solved with the proper application of high explosives.

BrettPhillips Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Strasburg, VA Points: 808	Post Options Post Reply Quote BrettPhillips Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 29 Jun 2012 at 7:46am
	The 138, 149, and 160 CID engines use a full circle thrust bearing at the flywheel end of the crankshaft. The 201 and 226 as found in the WC, WD, and WD45 use a full circle thrust bearing at the front main bearing similar to the BE/CE engine, and the D17 engine moved the thrust bearing to the center main (Maybe this was done when they went to full flow oil filtration?). All of this is from parts manuals, as I have not been into these engines deep enough to have personal experience with them. I have, however been through several CE engines. BrianC: At .041" endplay, NOW is the time to fix the problem. I'd say you might stand a chance of having a crank that is still in decent shape at this point. With a little luck, you might get away with just replacing your bearings and calling it good. If you continue to run it like that, it will only chew up your crankshaft and cost more to repair down the road. If you're a "shine 'em and line 'em" kind of guy, you might be OK for a little while, but if you like to run the tractor at all it is a ticking time bomb.

BrianC Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 16 Jun 2011 Location: New York Points: 1619	Post Options Post Reply Quote BrianC Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 29 Jun 2012 at 1:54pm
	Thanks Brett. I am surprised about the half baked thrust bearing design. It is a '48, engine desiged in the thirties I guess. I just thought they were more advanced than they are.

BrettPhillips Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Strasburg, VA Points: 808	Post Options Post Reply Quote BrettPhillips Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 29 Jun 2012 at 2:38pm
	I wouldn't consider a half circle thrust bearing to be low tech. Plenty of more modern engines have something similar. I think that it was more an attempt to cut costs than anything. Remember that at one point the B sold for well less than $1000 brand new. Maybe even less than $500, but I don't have my Swinford Bible handy to check that fact right now... At any rate, the design is perfectly adequate if good oil is used and changed regularly, and the operator does not ride the clutch pedal.

GlenninPA Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Ashley, PA Points: 5054	Post Options Post Reply Quote GlenninPA Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 29 Jun 2012 at 2:47pm
	Brett, it started at $495
	Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment. From listening comes wisdom and from speaking comes repentance. Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.

BrettPhillips Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Strasburg, VA Points: 808	Post Options Post Reply Quote BrettPhillips Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 29 Jun 2012 at 3:14pm
	I thought so, Glenn, but didn't want to stick a size 10 in my mouth! I remember reading that it (the B) had gotten much more expensive by the time 1957 came around... Edited by BrettPhillips - 29 Jun 2012 at 9:17pm

BrianC Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 16 Jun 2011 Location: New York Points: 1619	Post Options Post Reply Quote BrianC Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 29 Jun 2012 at 3:22pm
	My dad bought this '48 in early '49,with the full set of two row cultivators (series 80, hydraulic lift). He paid just under a grand, $990 I think. Hey for $990 in '48 dollars, I want a full trust bearing. Where is the complaint department? Head on down to AGCO in Duluth? Demand an out of warranty retrofit? I want action not excuses. I would bet that if something is out of spec on the lower end, it is the endplay getting bad first.

WC7610 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Sioux City, IA Points: 764	Post Options Post Reply Quote WC7610 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 29 Jun 2012 at 10:51pm
	dumb question time, but how do you check the end play, have lower end noise and after reading this thread, watched and can see movement in the front pulley and able to move the crank with pry bar.
	Thanks Most Bad Government has grown out of Too Much Government- Thomas Jefferson

SteveM C/IL Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8637	Post Options Post Reply Quote SteveM C/IL Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 29 Jun 2012 at 11:40pm
	Well,it's usually done with a dial indicator against the crank while prying back and forth. If .003-.005 is limit you should barely be able to see travel with naked eye. A 32nd in is around .030 and that ain't much on a visual. Poor mans way to kinda check on an installed engine.....clamp a piece of metal to something which will hold it up against the front of crank(or flywheel if accessable) and get it set to end of travel and check with a feeler guage.