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Les Kerf 
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 Topic: Off-Color Roosa-Master
Posted: 10 Dec 2024 at 7:07pm |
A friend has a Ford 800(?) series diesel tractor that won't start. He drove it into his shop, but the Roosa-Master pump was leaking, so he sent it out to be rebuilt. He re-installed the pump, but couldn't get it to start, so he installed an electric fuel pump to feed the Roosa0Master pump. He also removed the injectors and 'cleaned' them. Still no joy. He asked me to take a look at it, so today we removed the fuel tank to access the valve cover and rocker arms to verify that it was indeed on TDC #1 compression stroke, which it is. Valve clearances are also good. We put the flywheel marks at 23 deg BTDC and the timing marks in the pump are lined up correctly as per the manual. I am confident that it is installed correctly. I know nothing about this pump beyond what I read today in the I&T manual. Is there any way to bleed the injectors? This tractor is old and obviously tired, but it seems to have compression and it did drive and run 'ok' prior to removing the pump. Thanks 
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AC720Man
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Posted: 10 Dec 2024 at 9:10pm |
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Know nothing about a Ford but would feel certain you can crack open the injector lines at each injector to see if your getting fuel out of the pump? I’m sure you have checked that you have fuel to the pump?
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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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SteveM C/IL
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Location: Shelbyville IL
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Posted: 10 Dec 2024 at 10:00pm |
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I would think it has a hand primer or a tank above the pump to get fuel to the pump. If that's correct then loosen lines at injectors and crank. Once they have fuel leaking out tighten lines and it should start. This is kinda generic advice as I know nothing about that unit.
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DrAllis
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Posted: 10 Dec 2024 at 10:03pm |
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No need for an electric fuel pump because the tank is directly above the engine. Your pump has issues the way it sounds. Leave the injector lines loose one turn (at the injector) and crank until fuel squirts out and tighten.
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HudCo
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Posted: 10 Dec 2024 at 10:44pm |
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does it have a cable shutoff or a electrical shut off ? is the return plugged ? is fuel getting to the pump? is fuel getting out off the injector lines? is their any smoke cranking ? thats all i can think of right now
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injpumpEd
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Posted: 11 Dec 2024 at 8:24am |
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That should have the shut off on the throttle, so make sure it's about 1/2 throttle. There's a lot of sketchy "rebuild" shops out there these days. The D or DB on the old Fords are very basic, nothing fancy lol! As said bleed lines after making sure have good flow to the pump. Make sure return is not restricted. Timing of these is pretty simple as well, the tang on the drive is offset, so it should drop right in when right. If he had forced it by drawing it down, he probably seized the head as soon as he started cranking, don't think that's your issue, as you were able to recheck timing, so it's turning.
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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 11 Dec 2024 at 1:28pm |
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Thanks to all for the advice, it may be a week or three before I can get back up to where my friend lives but will report as to what happens then
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injpumpEd
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Posted: 12 Dec 2024 at 8:17am |
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I just re-read and saw where injectors were removed and "cleaned", so not sure what all that involved, was it done by a competent shop? Did they test them after to make sure they worked? They clean the carbon off the end only? took apart to properly clean? Did they wire wheel the ends, ruining the nozzle tip? Lots of questions lol!
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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 12 Dec 2024 at 4:25pm |
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Duplicate
Edited by Les Kerf - 12 Dec 2024 at 7:32pm
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 12 Dec 2024 at 4:32pm |
 injpumpEd wrote:
I just re-read and saw where injectors were removed and "cleaned", so not sure what all that involved, was it done by a competent shop? Did they test them after to make sure they worked? They clean the carbon off the end only? took apart to properly clean? Did they wire wheel the ends, ruining the nozzle tip? Lots of questions lol! |
Sadly, I am afraid that there was probably more harm done than good. When he mentioned that he 'cleaned' them I sorta raised my eyebrows but didn't cross examine him. He just said he took them apart and cleaned out the carbon, then put them back together. They were definitely not done professionally. Not sure when I will be able to get back up there, a lot depends on his health and the weather. It may not be until Springtime. Thanks for the input though, it is much appreciated.
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 18 hours 47 minutes ago at 5:42pm |
injpumpEd wrote:
I just re-read and saw where injectors were removed and "cleaned", so not sure what all that involved, was it done by a competent shop? Did they test them after to make sure they worked? They clean the carbon off the end only? took apart to properly clean? Did they wire wheel the ends, ruining the nozzle tip? Lots of questions lol! |
Update: We finally got warm enough weather for my friend to venture back out and take another stab at getting his little Ford to make noise.
Long story short: he did just about everything imaginable that was wrong to those injectors; wire brushed, took them completely apart, and tightened the adjusting nut inside all the way down tight. Apparently this raises the pressure required to fire the injector above the level that the pump can produce.
Lacking any proper test equipment (not to mention knowledge) I took a wild guess that just maybe the appropriate adjustment would be somewhere around the mid-point of the spring compression, I backed off the adjustment screw all the way out, then turned it in until it just contacted the spring, then counted the number of turns required to bottom out the adjustment (five full turns). I then backed it out two and a half turns, and repeated this on the remaining injectors.
Lo and behold, it actually started and ran! 
It did require a bit of cranking along with some starting fluid, and as I was driving home and ponderizing on this I thought that perhaps backing the screw out another half-turn might allow those injectors to fire more readily at cranking speeds. I called him after I got home and suggested this, which he agreed to try since he doesn't have it buttoned up yet.
Obviously, the 'proper' thing would be to take the injectors to a professional shop and have them done up right, but since my friend is afflicted with the same impecunious condition as I it seems unlikely that this will happen any time soon.
Thanks for the help!
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 14 hours 21 minutes ago at 10:08pm |
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WOW!
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Codger
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Posted: 6 hours 3 minutes ago at 6:26am |
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I'd get those injectors out of that engine and into a fuel shop before the engine either burns down, or washes itself clean. These are rather precision in nature and spray pattern, and crack pressure are very important. Using anything besides a nylon, or soft brass bristled brush on the tips, oh boy.....
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That's All Folks!
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tbran
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Posted: 4 hours 31 minutes ago at 7:58am |
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Whether a Roosa or a CAV when pumps wear in the head they start having issues popping the injectors at cranking speed. We have had tractors or combines that would not start when hot and customers would pour water on the head of the pump and they would crank. That is how critical the fit of the pumping pistons to the bore is. Lowering the pressures to allow them to pop at what level the pump will produce is a stop gap to what will be more problematic issues depending on the hour usage. There is a great danger not knowing the pressure of the injectors. Also on a rotary pump unequal pressure can lead to unequal loading of fuel to cylinders. Don't run it much til addressed. Definitely don't load /work it. As the saying goes - do you feel lucky ?
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When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 4 hours 27 minutes ago at 8:02am |
Codger wrote:
I'd get those injectors out of that engine and into a fuel shop before the engine either burns down, or washes itself clean. These are rather precision in nature and spray pattern, and crack pressure are very important. Using anything besides a nylon, or soft brass bristled brush on the tips, oh boy.....
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Agreed.
Last winter he was asking how much it would be worth as scrap metal and I told him maybe $200 (without looking up current prices). He would have sold it to me right then for that price but I managed to talk him into giving it another chance.
Yesterday he asked how much it would cost to overhaul the engine (it's pretty tired). I told him a minimum of $2000; he said he didn't have that much to spend.
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 4 hours 5 minutes ago at 8:24am |
tbran wrote:
Whether a Roosa or a CAV when pumps wear in the head they start having issues popping the injectors at cranking speed. We have had tractors or combines that would not start when hot and customers would pour water on the head of the pump and they would crank. That is how critical the fit of the pumping pistons to the bore is. Lowering the pressures to allow them to pop at what level the pump will produce is a stop gap to what will be more problematic issues depending on the hour usage. There is a great danger not knowing the pressure of the injectors. Also on a rotary pump unequal pressure can lead to unequal loading of fuel to cylinders. Don't run it much til addressed. Definitely don't load /work it. As the saying goes - do you feel lucky ? |
Thank you for the explanation. I think this tractor already has one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel.
He already spent $500 having the pump 'rebuilt' and the rebuilder told him that it was getting weak but should run ok in warm weather (dunno how that qualifies as being rebuilt, but that's what he said). At minimum it still needs a set of new or rebuilt injectors. He hasn't looked into that yet as far as cost/availability.
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