Advice on Powershift Troubles

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   I was wondering if I could get a second opinion. I recently had a powershift transmission rebuilt to the cost of almost $11,000 in a 7060. 
I used it yesterday and while driving down a gravel road not pulling anything, and I was in 6th gear high side. After around 20 minutes of driving the RPMs began to decrease rapidly with no warning. I stepped in the clutch otherwise the engine would have killed itself. 

I called the guy that rebuilt the transmission, and he told me to try it in first gear. Nothing, the rpms began to bog down instantly. He told me to shift to low side and try moving the tractor in 1st gear. It worked and the tractor began to move. 

I then shifted into high side, and slowly worked up the gears. The tractor seems to loose RPMs easier in 6th gear than normal, and I could hear it in the engine also, so I drove it home the last 2 miles in 5th gear. By the time I parked it, I could smell that the transmission what hot. Like a burnt smell. 

The guy that is well known for his quality work, is coming to the farm. He thinks something might of happened to the valve body. He was wondering if a 3rd clutch disc was engaging. The transmission has less than 5 hours on a rebuild. 

I am not very well versed on how a powershift and how the valve body operates. Could there be something going on in the transmission, or would adjustments in the valve body fix the issue? 

Thanks!

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tthams Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 18 Oct 2020 Location: Denison, Iowa Points: 140	Post Options Post Reply Quote tthams Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Advice on Powershift Troubles Posted: 11 Jul 2021 at 7:33am
	I was wondering if I could get a second opinion. I recently had a powershift transmission rebuilt to the cost of almost $11,000 in a 7060. I used it yesterday and while driving down a gravel road not pulling anything, and I was in 6th gear high side. After around 20 minutes of driving the RPMs began to decrease rapidly with no warning. I stepped in the clutch otherwise the engine would have killed itself. I called the guy that rebuilt the transmission, and he told me to try it in first gear. Nothing, the rpms began to bog down instantly. He told me to shift to low side and try moving the tractor in 1st gear. It worked and the tractor began to move. I then shifted into high side, and slowly worked up the gears. The tractor seems to loose RPMs easier in 6th gear than normal, and I could hear it in the engine also, so I drove it home the last 2 miles in 5th gear. By the time I parked it, I could smell that the transmission what hot. Like a burnt smell. The guy that is well known for his quality work, is coming to the farm. He thinks something might of happened to the valve body. He was wondering if a 3rd clutch disc was engaging. The transmission has less than 5 hours on a rebuild. I am not very well versed on how a powershift and how the valve body operates. Could there be something going on in the transmission, or would adjustments in the valve body fix the issue? Thanks!

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Lynn Marshall Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Dana, Iowa Points: 2343	Post Options Post Reply Quote Lynn Marshall Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Jul 2021 at 8:21am
	There may be a problem in the valve body that would cause a third clutch pack to be engaged. But,if that third pack was slipped for very long, it's probably warped and ruined. No exactly what you wanted to hear.

DrAllis Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21382	Post Options Post Reply Quote DrAllis Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Jul 2021 at 8:24am
	The transmission clutches only do what the valve body tells them to do. There can only be TWO clutches engaged at a time. Three (because of a stuck valve) will cause BIG troubles.

DrAllis Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21382	Post Options Post Reply Quote DrAllis Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Jul 2021 at 8:34am
	I will relay a very bad repair that I encountered 30+ yrs ago (by someone else), and it was also related to 6th gear operation. There are three cast iron sealing rings inside of the C1 and C2 (reverse) clutch pack hub which is at the rear of the tranny. If these three sealing rings have not been replaced with new (takes more labor to do so) and checked for proper "squeeze" when installed, the reverse C2 clutch may be getting a small amount of oil delivered to it when it shouldn't be. The high RPM's seem to allow the dribble of oil into that C2 clutch to lightly apply it. Very difficult to catch on a clutch pressure gauge and the conditions have to be just right (hot oil and extended high RPM's in 6th gear) to cause this to happen. Ever since that problem child, I usually increased drain orifice size on the C2 clutch. New wave springs in C2 is also a good idea. So, if the C2 reverse clutch is smoked, either the C2 valve was stuck or this oil leakage scenario is the cause. Edited by DrAllis - 11 Jul 2021 at 8:36am

tthams Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 18 Oct 2020 Location: Denison, Iowa Points: 140	Post Options Post Reply Quote tthams Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Jul 2021 at 10:44am
	The guy says he stands behind his work. So if it happened once, it most likely will happen again under same conditions. Would you recommend tearing the transmission apart again then to get to those seals? Are there things to look for after he works on the valve body to look for damage to the transmission? The guy is coming this week to look at the valve body. But I agree, I think something is toast in the transmission.

DrAllis Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21382	Post Options Post Reply Quote DrAllis Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Jul 2021 at 8:01pm
	If the reverse C2 clutch is smoked, I'd be sure to ask him if he changed out the three 70267717 hook-type sealing rings on the rear clutch support. it is something that could have been skipped. What was the exact nature of your transmissions failure to begin with ???????

Lynn Marshall Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Dana, Iowa Points: 2343	Post Options Post Reply Quote Lynn Marshall Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Jul 2021 at 8:13pm
	Once you get the valve body off, you may be able to see a clutch pack that is discolored or blackened from the heat. However, not all of the packs are visible through the valve body hole.

tthams Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 18 Oct 2020 Location: Denison, Iowa Points: 140	Post Options Post Reply Quote tthams Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Jul 2021 at 8:17pm
	I am looking at the bill, and I can gladly private message you Dr. Allis and send you pic of bill if you would like. It lists everything he has done. I don't see 70267717. But I see 70267713 that is the closest to the number which lists it as seals. Here is a link to the original post I from last November. It lists the original issues I was seeing. https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/7060-power-shift-has-me-puzzled_topic175626.html Edited by tthams - 11 Jul 2021 at 8:18pm

DrAllis Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21382	Post Options Post Reply Quote DrAllis Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Jul 2021 at 8:27pm
	The potential problem I have proposed would only happen in 5th gear, not 6th. My bad. Just been toooo many years ago to remember for sure. It could happen in 4th and 3rd and second as well, but like I said, it is RPM/centrifugal force related and with hot operating temp oil and for extended run time at full throttle.

tbran Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Paris Tn Points: 3472	Post Options Post Reply Quote tbran Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Jul 2021 at 8:27pm
	We are beginning to see metal fatigue show up. We rebuilt a high hour 7060 and it failed after 20 hours - the C2 clutch pack fractured where the lip seal rode... dumping oil pressure .. another 8070 had the machined area between the seal rings break off and float... probably see more of this as time goes by... we will do much more and closer inspections especially if there has been shock type failures..
	When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..

MACK Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 17 Nov 2009 Points: 7664	Post Options Post Reply Quote MACK Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Jul 2021 at 8:30pm
	Make sure he sucked all the old oil out of transmission when it was rebuilt. There is a area under dip stick that don't drain. Either pump it out or suck it out (about 2 gal). Crud from original failure could have got into valve causing 2nd failure. If it is not gone through again, there most likely going to be a 3rd failure. When a 3rd clutch engages parts go to &%$$ in a hurry. MACK

tthams Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 18 Oct 2020 Location: Denison, Iowa Points: 140	Post Options Post Reply Quote tthams Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Jul 2021 at 8:51pm
	Thanks again for the input everyone. You are sharing what I was fearing about tearing it apart again. I love Allis, and grew up with Allis. I always wanted a powershift on the farm. My dad would never budge off of power director transmission. Maybe he knew something I didn't. Power shift transmission currently seem to be more problems than they are worth :( The guy is coming this week to look the tractor over, but I think the tractor has to be torn apart again. I bought the tractor last September in 2020, and have maybe 20 hours on it. With more down time coming again. It will be on his dime this time. I will post what he says. He knew my Dad very well, and he is well know in the area for quality work. He use to work at Robinson Implement (Agco) fixing things, so I trust him. To address the issues of dirty oil in the bottom on the tranny, I personally drained the oil from the plate at the bottom of the transmission housing, and replaced the filter. Wouldn't he see the dirty oil during the rebuild that you are talking about? Edited by tthams - 11 Jul 2021 at 9:08pm

DrAllis Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21382	Post Options Post Reply Quote DrAllis Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Jul 2021 at 9:56pm
	The dirty oil left behind is inside the range transmission. Probably 2 to 3 quarts ?? but if it's dirty and filled with iron filings, it gets washed right into the new oil and new transmission parts.

tthams Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 18 Oct 2020 Location: Denison, Iowa Points: 140	Post Options Post Reply Quote tthams Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 Jul 2021 at 8:46pm
	I spoke with the guy that did the transmission rebuild today. He is going to warranty his work. The the tractor will be delivered to him on Saturday.