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Fluttering Ammeter
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DSeries4 View Drop Down
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Points: 7639 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DSeries4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Fluttering Ammeter
    Posted: 30 Apr 2020 at 8:50pm
I got the D21 out of the shop and ready to put it to work.  When I bought the tractor, the needle on the ammeter would flutter back and forth in the charge zone.  I rebuilt the alternator and put a new voltage regulator on during the winter, but I find it is still doing it.  The wiring is not the greatest, so that would be my guess.  Are there any thoughts on what can cause this?

I have a video of it, but I cannot upload it here, unless someone knows how.

If you didn't see my pictures on facebook, here are a few.  Who doesn't love looking at d21s???  Spent a lot of money, fixed a lot of things, doesn't look noticeably better, but runs sweet!  Looking forward to getting out in the field next week!
'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '63 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080
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Joe(TX) View Drop Down
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
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Points: 1682 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe(TX) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2020 at 9:32pm
Was it at low rpm? A bad rectifier or diode in the alternator would cause that.
1970 190XT, 1973 200, 1962 D-19 Diesel, 1979 7010, 1957 WD45, 1950 WD, 1961 D17, Speed Patrol, D14, All crop 66 big bin, 180 diesel, 1970 170 diesel, FP80 forklift. Gleaner A
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DSeries4 View Drop Down
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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Points: 7639 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DSeries4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2020 at 9:47pm
Originally posted by Joe(TX) Joe(TX) wrote:

Was it at low rpm? A bad rectifier or diode in the alternator would cause that.


Any RPM.  Low, high and everything in between.
'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '63 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080
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JoeO(C-MO) View Drop Down
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Joined: 12 Oct 2009
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Points: 132 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeO(C-MO) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2020 at 10:16pm
New brushes and cleaning the slip rings
D10 III, D15 II 3 pt, D15 II SC, 170 Gas w/shuttle, 175 Diesel UI ROPS, 185 w ROPS. AC 653 w/6 way blade, ROPS
AC 615 Ind. WD45 running/Parts.
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Brian G. NY View Drop Down
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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Points: 2278 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian G. NY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2020 at 10:51am
Try another ammeter......some of them do not work well under vibration.
I had the problem on a WD and another ammeter worked fine.
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DaveKamp View Drop Down
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
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Points: 6126 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2020 at 2:05pm
Yep, could be anywhere from alternator right up to the point where the ammeter charge wiring gets back to the battery.  Other guys would know better... is charge current routed through the keyswitch?

It could be as simple as a wire that has wicked in moisture, and become corroded internally to the point where it's starting to lose continuity.  I would NOT throw parts at it yet... I'd make a jumper wire, and bypass each span of the wiring FIRST,and see if any particular jump clears it... if it does, you've isolated the problem.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Points: 130 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BigGuy1000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2020 at 3:15pm
As long as it averages (to your eye) in the + side or charge zone, this is OK and normal on some ACs, our 170 and 175D have done this for 50 years and have always kept the charge OK as long as the battery and alternator  are good!  If it flutters between 0 and 10 amps, the average is then 5 amps, for instance, or between 0 and 20 then average is 10.
It is possible to get an ammeter with heavy "damping" so that it does not flutter like this, but there is no operational advantage to doing this, and most older ACs do not have this.


 
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Joined: 06 Dec 2013
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Points: 130 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BigGuy1000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2020 at 6:01pm
This is because the older Delco alternators  usually found on old ACs have an "on-off" method of regulation of the charge current, whereas some other kinds of alternators have an inbetween on and off method of control.  Either method is fine as long as the battery, wiring, and the alternator are OK!
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DSeries4 View Drop Down
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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Points: 7639 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DSeries4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2020 at 8:49pm
It is not discharging, but it does swing pretty far over on the charge side.  Original AC ammeter shows +40 as the maximum.  The needle swings between 0 and 35 very frequently.  I just don't want the batteries to over charge.
'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '63 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
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Points: 34631 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JC-WI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2020 at 10:00pm
If the Ammeter needle is fluttering, it is the points in the regulator that momentarily "stick" and then "break open" that causes it. I changed the regulator to electronic regulator and it ran smooth. If you see the lights flickering and the ammeter swinging, then the points are getting burnt. and when they stick "on" and don't release, then you will cook the batteries. 
  The ammeter shouldn't really flutter when everything is in perfect shape. jmo.
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DSeries4 View Drop Down
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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Points: 7639 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DSeries4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2020 at 9:52pm
The voltage regulator is a brand new electronic one - no points in it.

"The ammeter shouldn't really flutter when everything is in perfect shape. jmo."

I know.  Rebuilt alternator and brand new electronic voltage regulator.  Aside from wiring, could it be anything else?
'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '63 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080
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jaybmiller View Drop Down
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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Points: 25270 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2020 at 6:08am
I'd remove ammeter from tractor and 'bench test' it. wire it up to battery and a few 1157 light bulbs. 1157s draw about 2 amps each ,so 5 of them in parallel should move the needle to about '10' amps. At a constant draw, needle should be steady.
If it is steady , the ammeter is OK
If you 'pulse' the power, on -off at say 1 second intervals, the needle should jumpt to 10 and stay there, NOT 'jump around'.
If it is steady , the ammeter is OK

So... if the ammeter works fine 'on the bench', the problem is on the tractor. I suspect the wiring, if original though alternator or egulator could be faulty, even if new. 'faulty' doesn't mean 100% bad.

? does it flutter when headlights are on ??
? any other 'loads' like radio,aux lights, etc ??
? have you tried another battery ??
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)

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