power directors and live PTO

Not looking for any advice or anything here; just going to share my Allis Chalmers experiences using the power directors to obtain live PTO. My first Allis was a D19, and I used it a lot for haying. First day of cutting hay with it, I was ready to run it off a cliff! Instinct had me slamming on the foot clutch every time I needed to ease through a tough spot, which obviously just made things worse when the PTO stopped, too. After a few days of getting used to the grabbing the lever instead of hitting the foot clutch, it was no longer an issue. Luckily for me, the PD clutch on the D19 was adjusted perfectly, and that made it a good "learning tractor". The PD lever engaged good in both high and low, and only had a little drag in neutral when it was cold. Once it warmed up, putting it in neutral truly was "neutral". I really learned to love the PD when round baling. Stopping to tie a bale was simply pop the lever into neutral, instead of sitting there with foot on the clutch. Especially a big deal with the old single twine arm baler I had at the time, that probably took up-wards of two minutes to tie and kick out a bale. Another big deal I discovered was, that if I needed to stop everything instantly, like right before a rock was going to get run into the baler or something, stepping on the foot clutch was way faster than what grabbing for a PTO lever would have been. Next few tractors I bought were D series as well, so eventually, running the "big stick" became more normal to me than other brand tractors.
     Next learning curve came when I got the one ninety gas and one ninety XT, with the hydraulic PD on the counsel. I was already used to using a lever instead of the foot clutch, so I just had to get used to "feathering" the hydraulic instead of manual power director. The XT, I bought specifically for the big round baler, and have literally baled thousands of bales with it. Not much feathering of the PD required for that; just neutral when tying off a bale, and forward or back to take off. Had an auto wrap baler behind it, so that made it twice as sweet. Buzzer goes off, put PD in neutral, buzzer goes off again, kick bale out, pull PD back, and make next bale. Seemed that 3rd gear (5th/6th by the sticker) was engineered specifically for round baling, because speed was ideal. In good going, PD in high; hit a tough spot and pull the PD back. Brother in law and I had identical 660 New Holland balers, but he pulled his with a 1086. I could leave him in the dust when we'd pull into a field together. One night, I helped a neighbor out baling, who had a very new Ford New Holland tractor with the shuttle shift on it, with the neutral position. I baled with him bale for bale for hours. When we got done, he come over to me and the XT, and was telling me how he liked that Ford tractor for baling, because he could put that shuttle in neutral when tying off a bale, so he didn't have to sit there with his foot on the clutch. I was busting at the seams to tell him that I had the same capability, but my tractor was 40 years older than his, and cost a fraction as much.
    The one ninety gasser, I've used a lot for snow blowing. I have a rear mount blower on it. I guess when a person can blow snow in reverse without killing the engine, ya have got "feathering the PD" down pat.
    Most recent tractor is a 185 that my son bought, with a loader on it. Now that one has the hydraulic PTO clutch and both 540 and 1,000 PTO's. Had been kind of anxious to try it out for PTO work, due to not having to step on the clutch to engage the PTO. All winter we've had the gasser on the feed wagon, and loaded the feed wagon with the 185. One place where we feed range cows, we have about 10 "turned tractor tires" That we feed in. That means stopping by a tire, engage PTO and fill tire, dis-engage PTO and drive to the next tire and repeat; 10 times. I have to admit, that was a little in-convenient with the gasser, mostly because on that tractor, the PTO lever is that little tiny knob down on floor beside the seat. Had been thinking about how much handier the 185 would be on the feed wagon, with the hydraulic engage PTO, but we thought it wasn't worth the inconvenience of in-hooking to load, and hooking back up to feed. A couple weeks ago, though, we kind of got forced into that scenario, when a rear tire on the gasser went bad. The first day of feeding with 185, it wasn't the cream puff I had envisioned. PD was jerky, so I thought, would hit the throttle instead of the PD, hit the PD instead of the PTO, and so forth. I was ready for the gasser again. But,.....by day two, getting more used to it, things were much better. And by day three, going back to the gasser wasn't even an option. Going down the line of tires and filling them couldn't be easier with anything else. Get to each tire, pull PD into neutral, as I'm pushing the PTO lever ahead, fill tire, pull PTO back as PD goes ahead (or back, doesn't matter), and go to next tire. And for the places where we fill feed bunks, feathering that PD isn't bad either. Biggest thing I learned with feathering the 185 PD, though, was to put main tranny in 2nd rather than 3rd. Got to where hooking and in-hooking the feed wagon takes about 30 seconds if you're slow, so that became a non-issue. And only needing to keep one tractor plugged in, instead of two is kind if significant, too.
    Didn't mean to get this story so long, so I apologize for that. But my whole point is that if a person is open minded about it, using the PD to obtain live PTO is not a bad thing like it's portrayed to be by some folks that love other colored tractors. And in fact, there are some benefits to it, at least in my mind. The end! LOL! Darrel

They were ok for their time but really don’t compare to the tranny options for most things to a 6000, 7000, or 8000 series tractors.   Only time I ever felt the “ big stick” was handier was when I was 8 or 9 and the clutch peddle on the 17 was a reach. Most impressive round baling tractor was the neighbors 160 when I was a kid he could really churn out the bales with it.

The 8 gears the PD gives is fine with me.The only thing I'd like is my 185 to have the PD
like the D19 and the gear speed split be the same as the D19.

My grandfather spoiled me, I guess.  Grew up on a D-14, plowin and plantin, and bush-hoggin, mostly.  As a young man, I could drink a beer, pee, and plow, all at the same time...

I don't know, but I think the WD45 was the ultimate tractor on a baler.  I put thousands upon thousands of square bales of hay out with one.
I never got to use a round baler, but I'd bet it would be the same with the stopping and starting.  That wet clutch withstood a lot of abuse for a lot of years before it ever needed changing.  JMHO

that power director is really the ticket for baling hay (small bales ) for easing through tough haevey spot s and grabbing a fast gear in the light spots.    would not want to use a differant tractor for baling

victoryallis wrote: They were ok for their time but really don’t compare to the tranny options for most things to a 6000, 7000, or 8000 series tractors.   Only time I ever felt the “ big stick” was handier was when I was 8 or 9 and the clutch peddle on the 17 was a reach. Most impressive round baling tractor was the neighbors 160 when I was a kid he could really churn out the bales with it.

You are right in saying "They were OK for their time." I am sure that if a tractor manufacturer came out with a tractor in this day and age, that was such that the PTO would stop when you stepped on the clutch, it would go over like a fart in church. I guess I was mostly saying that these PD tractors got a way worse rap than they deserved. Take like an old John Deere R that my grandpa had when I was a kid. It had a hand clutch only, but God forbid should you knock a JD R. And then the shuttle shifts with neutral position like every tractor on the planet now has; what's the neutral position for....? Stopping without having to use the clutch pedal, I'd guess. I do know that stepping on a clutch pedal isn't a chore from hell or anything, but on older dry clutch tractors, if you kick out 100 to 150 big round bales in a day (or night), your left leg will be quivering. Newer tractors, where the clutch pedal just runs a dump valve, it isn't as bad, because the pedal doesn't push back as hard. Darrel

darrel in ND wrote: Forgot to ask, too, Victory; what size big round baler did the guy with the 160 have? Seems small to make 5 X 6, but I suppose it could be done. Darrel

Deere model 510 probably a 4x5 bale.

DrAllis wrote: For a lot of years I've had something designed in my head for a 190 or 200, to create a "live" PTO with the tractor as it was built. Step #1. adjust the foot clutch pedal free-play to 6 inches. This is easily done.  Step #2. devise a dump valve to the Power Director valve and connect it with linkage (cable ?) to the foot clutch pedal. Step #3. In operation, stepping on the clutch pedal down to the free-play zone releases the Power Director clutch and leaves the PTO running. Stepping all the way down releases the foot clutch. It would operate like a 2-stage clutch that some Fords and Masseys had. Problem solved.

If you ever come up with a kit for that, let us know

If you learned to bale hay with a WD  the others were all backward with the WD you pushed the hand clutch to stop the tractor and used the foot clutch to stop the pto then if you went to the neighbors that had an oliver you stepped on the foot clutch to stop the tractor and had to reach beside the seat to stop the pto. 

DrAllis wrote: For a lot of years I've had something designed in my head for a 190 or 200, to create a "live" PTO with the tractor as it was built. Step #1. adjust the foot clutch pedal free-play to 6 inches. This is easily done.  Step #2. devise a dump valve to the Power Director valve and connect it with linkage (cable ?) to the foot clutch pedal. Step #3. In operation, stepping on the clutch pedal down to the free-play zone releases the Power Director clutch and leaves the PTO running. Stepping all the way down releases the foot clutch. It would operate like a 2-stage clutch that some Fords and Masseys had. Problem solved.

This idea of yours, Dr., is really starting to grow on me. It would really make the dry disk clutch last forever, because it would never get engaged under a load, except for a PTO load, if'n ya don't have Hydraulic PTO clutch. The power director clutch would always be the final engagement, thus doing all of the work. And very rightfully so, being it's the multi disk wet clutch. The whole concept is getting very close to the way the PD operates on the 7 and 8 thousand series, with an extra advantage; it would still have the option of using the neutral position by hand, if so desired. It's brilliant, leastwise I think so. Darrel

I always shake my head and chuckle when I read someone apologizing for a long detailed post on here.

Family bought first WD new in 1949 and I was born in 1948. Too small at a young age to reach the pedals real well so Dad or my Uncle would put the tractor in low gear and I used the hand clutch to stop and start forward motion and could slide down in the seat some to use the brakes if needed. When the D-17 came along the power director again was used as a clutch. To this day when I run the D-17 I still have I never touch the foot clutch except to shift gears or engage/disengage the PTO. Old habits are hard to break at almost 70 years of age. Using your hand seems much smoother to me than a foot clutch on that particular tractor. When I first was exposed to tractors with independent PTO it seemed weird to me to have it that way.

darrel in ND wrote: clarkscreek wrote: I thought the same thing with my 200 mowing last year. At first I hated it but by the end of the season I grew to like it. I'm going to try it out on the round baler this year You'll like round baling with it. Fuel economy is over the top good; leastwise it is with my XT, and 200 should be just as good. Darrel

  Darrel....Are you house bound???