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thinking topfuel machining on 226

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mlpankey View Drop Down
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    Posted: 12 Dec 2012 at 3:49pm
Aluminum blocks if known are going to be used for top fuel get the mains machined and a replaceable steel insert goes in to hold upper main bearing. I was pondering the same thing but solely to move cranks centerline down away from cam to fit 7 inch stroke. Heres the question how much do you recon it can be moved before having major bellhousing issues with starter to flywheel ring cam gear to crank gear etc.
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Gary in da UP View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary in da UP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2012 at 4:00pm
  I say go for it,  build it , dyno it, put it in a tractor and pull it !   Here is a great chance to show everyone what you can do.   Good Luck Mitch !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlpankey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2012 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by Gary in da UP Gary in da UP wrote:

  I say go for it,  build it , dyno it, put it in a tractor and pull it !   Here is a great chance to show everyone what you can do.   Good Luck Mitch !
garry your vote of confidence will make all the diference.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mrgoodwrench Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2012 at 6:14pm
if you can build that and pull it i don't think you could be called a keyboard commando again...sounds very interesting...i would think any distance would at the least mean slotting some holes for bell, but i guess you could make a relocated adapter plate?
There are 3 ways to do job GOOD, FAST, CHEAP. YOU MAY CHOOSE 2. If its FAST & CHEAP it won't be GOOD, if it's GOOD & CHEAP it won't be FAST, and if its GOOD & FAST it won't be CHEAP!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AaronSEIA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2012 at 6:47pm
Curious, when you lower the crank, how do you keep the cam gear and timing the same?  Interesting idea, but seems to me the bellhousing is the least of the problems.  The trouble would all be at the front.  Love this forum, no one is afraid to think outside the box.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rod B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2012 at 7:08pm
It'd be easy enough to do. Use a small main crank or turn the mains down even smaller on a d17 crank to fit another berring insert for even less surface speed like others have to. Make a main berring assembly like WI50 has shown he made 15 years ago and place the liner in the main berring bores of the block.

You're not the first one to think about it.

Edited by Rod B - 12 Dec 2012 at 7:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rod B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2012 at 8:21pm
Originally posted by mlpankey mlpankey wrote:

Aluminum blocks if known are going to be used for top fuel get the mains machined and a replaceable steel insert goes in to hold upper main bearing. I was pondering the same thing but solely to move cranks centerline down away from cam to fit 7 inch stroke. Heres the question how much do you recon it can be moved before having major bellhousing issues with starter to flywheel ring cam gear to crank gear etc.


Your mechanical disability never ceases to amuse us. As long as you're worried about moveing it so little that cam gear train isn't effected. It'd be easier to move the cam by offset boreing and sleveing the bores up in the block and turning the main cam diameters down as far as possiable. Or offset bore the cam bore and make a billet cam with large mains. Just think of the ramp geometry if starting with a clean slate.

Edited by Rod B - 12 Dec 2012 at 8:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mrgoodwrench Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2012 at 8:31pm
for once pankey has a great post with good questions and ideas and with no negativity and he gets attacked! 5 replies in!
There are 3 ways to do job GOOD, FAST, CHEAP. YOU MAY CHOOSE 2. If its FAST & CHEAP it won't be GOOD, if it's GOOD & CHEAP it won't be FAST, and if its GOOD & FAST it won't be CHEAP!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rod B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2012 at 8:40pm
Who's attackin pank?

I'm only telling him how to do it and the easiest way to do it. He was asking for advice how to do it and keep the stock timeing gears so I gave him a better idea. Moveing the cam keeps the ring gear and starter problem he had out of the equation.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Butch(OH) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2012 at 8:53pm
Clutch flywheel problems will likely be easier than the others you create when moving the crank centerline? I guess you need to better define "major" issues. Moving the crank down more than a few  thousands means new gears or new drive sytem such as chains cog belt etc so the answer there is it makes no differance, of your going to move it down .100 you might as well go 1.000. One problem you didnt mention is the relationship of the crank to the input shaft. Engine will have to be moved up or some creative means to move the input down?  I saw this done with a full width plate or girdle on ( I think?) an Oliver? Some classes you cannot have such exterior mods? but you would know more that than I for sure. I would be a hard modification to hide if thats part of the equation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlpankey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 6:47am
We looked at moving the cam but that means lifterbores move pushrods rockers etc . overhead cam is a diffeferent story playing with that idea as well .  You guys are right I aint the only one working on it word is hayden is attempting the same . yes butch starter bell housing issues include input shaft.   rob if you remember i posted when wi showed his bottom end 15 years ago that andy needed to do something like that for that 6.5 stroke crank laying under his bed . Wi used aluminum bars to girdle . This would be steel inserts to fit upper main bores to move crank down away from cam .  its not as hard to hide as the cylinder head will be.    A belt drive for the cam means a new cam . Cam will turn clockwise instead of counter clockwise like it does by paired gears. 500 cubes on 4 cylinders is a challenge fo the likes of me but over 400 cubes isnt and no one to my knowledge that has 400 plus inches on this site calls me a keyboard commando as well .

Edited by mlpankey - 13 Dec 2012 at 7:16am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mgburchard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 7:20am
well looks like most have passed the man pankeys test as to what you have to do to makes this work YOUR THE MAN PANKEY
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Butch(OH) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 8:43am
Well Pank, you have not realy shared any secrete or top level knowledge here. You asked if moving the crank will cause problems eslewhere and the obvious question is yes. It is also obvious that taking one gear out of a gear train or adding one reverses the direction of the driven gear, again all emementary.  If you want to talk inteligently I am willing to participate. If your going to build it, just do it. If you just want to beat your chest and talk stupid I am done here.

Edited by Butch(OH) - 13 Dec 2012 at 9:20am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Butch(OH) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 8:51am
Originally posted by mgburchard mgburchard wrote:

well looks like most have passed the man pankeys test as to what you have to do to makes this work YOUR THE MAN PANKEY
 
Pictures realy add to posts like this LOL 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 9:14am
Originally posted by mgburchard mgburchard wrote:

well looks like most have passed the man pankeys test as to what you have to do to makes this work YOUR THE MAN PANKEY

I don't see any test and no one has gotten an A+ yet sept Butch. The question was: "Heres the question how much do you recon it can be moved before having major bellhousing issues with starter to flywheel ring cam gear to crank gear etc."
The answer is another question, why move it a few thousands of an in? Yes thousandths of an inch would be the limit before you have trouble with the cam and crank gears. There would be no advantage to it and it will only add problems to a build.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlpankey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 9:19am
The advantage is how much stroke a few extra thousandts will let you get by the heel of the cam . no replacement for displacement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mgburchard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 9:21am
envey will get you no where lol i would never dress in red checks lol orange maybe but not red lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Butch(OH) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 9:26am
Originally posted by mgburchard mgburchard wrote:

envey will get you no where l
Please add pic so your posts have value
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GBACBFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 9:36am
Originally posted by Butch(OH) Butch(OH) wrote:

Originally posted by mgburchard mgburchard wrote:

envey will get you no where l
Please add pic so your posts have value
 
It's not right for you to take pics at the union Christmas party Butch. Shame on you!
"The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you can never know if they
are genuine." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Butch(OH) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 10:17am
Originally posted by GBACBFan GBACBFan wrote:

Originally posted by Butch(OH) Butch(OH) wrote:

Originally posted by mgburchard mgburchard wrote:

envey will get you no where l
Please add pic so your posts have value
 
It's not right for you to take pics at the union Christmas party Butch. Shame on you!

Just a somewhat shamful attempt at keeping ONE of these topcs factual and useful. Unbeknownst to some who post here there are highly modified engines operating all over this country, some even built by people who look at this site but get no joy from cyber bloating about their accomplishments,,,  There are others who would actualy like to learn without wading through the BS.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Moderator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 11:44am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlpankey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 11:49am
So true butch so many g226 engines stretched to 450 inches out there that they are to hard to count . but not one is of them runs in your gang of posters thats why your gangs so envious as burchard posted.

Edited by mlpankey - 13 Dec 2012 at 11:52am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Breeze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 11:51am
mg = mitch's gal ?????
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AaronSEIA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 2:45pm
How much stroke could be gained by moving the crank south a few thousandths?  If you can gain enough to make it work, why can't you remove that much from the outside of the rod or the block to make it work?  I don't know what the clearances are now for the cubes they run.  Just the ramblings of a non puller trying to stay on point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 2:57pm
I have seen engines set up and run where there would be at least a half inch interference between the cam and the rod cap. They just notch the cam to clear the special built rod. Lighten up the valve springs and run for 3 or 4 years without many problems. These aren't top fuel make believe engines. They are stock appearing, stock rpm engines that develop 150 hp on the dyno.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote D-17_Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 3:32pm
Why all the interest in adding stroke. Wasn't it just a few months back that Panky had this raging argument that he wanted RPM's not length of stoke.....

Yea, I can fix that.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary in da UP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 3:38pm
Mitch your OHC idea would make it easier to eliminate cam clearance,  conflict. And  Think of the kinda flow you could get..... Might as well make it a crossflow semi-hemi , eh?
Post photos, Lots of 'em , we like photos. Can't wait to see the build video  on u tube.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wi50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2012 at 11:54am
Now this thread can't actually be serious.  If someone has to consult their business partners on how far to move the crank and not run into problems with timeing gear backlash then has to come on a forum asking for advice..... possiably new business partners ( possiably immaginary friends) would be a wise move.
 
An even better idea it to first master haveing some reliability in an engine package.
 
Rod is actually correct in moveing the cam. 
 
I've spent my fair share of time measureing up these blocks and figureing out where to put what.  I've made billet cams for some, roller lifter setup for one. There is about .300 that the lifter can travel up in it's bore before hitting the lifter rail in the block when it's at max lift sitting on a stock cam, and of course if a cam was custom ground that point would be slightly lower, or even closer to the cams centerline as the additional lift comes from the smaller base of the cam.
 
There's plenty of material in that lifter rail to machine it so the lifters could rise higher, but because of the cam placement already, the cam can be moved about 1/4" up without working to hard.  Makeing plugs that fill the lifter bores and offset boreing the new cam bore higher.
 
It wouldn't take all that much to do, a belt drive system and a little block line boreing, a little crank and cam work to fit pulleys and it's done.  The lifter rail is verry thick and could be relieved some for the lifter bases in these engines and strong enough to support a cam turning either direction.  Custom pushrods are cheap.
 
I have billet rods made at a local machine shop, I spent some time figureing the cap angle and the bolt placement, rod profile etc. tried a sample and tweeked them pretty good for clearance.


Edited by wi50 - 15 Dec 2012 at 11:56am
"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlpankey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2012 at 4:57pm

rod kinda right and kinda wrong . boring the cam bores and using a larger cam journal doesnt move the centerline. one would have to reduce cam journal size and make some eccentric bushings or bearings to move centerline.  a billet cam shaft could have the base circle smaller than the hollow factory cams . wi we have aoy of cams with .330 lift on cam that hasnt had any lifter rail work so that .300 number is off a tad. we know how much you can line bore one before you have to cut the gear down.  turning the cam the opposite way wqith a belt drive takes a totally redesigned cam also.   buisness is good on the strokers . wi must have figured out a away to feed cfm to one theres a post by him thats says theres no waya cylinder head could possibly feed a 6,5 stroke and thats why he built small inch motors.  Its not hypocrisy its just a different combination.



Edited by mlpankey - 15 Dec 2012 at 5:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2012 at 5:16pm
Originally posted by mlpankey mlpankey wrote:

. boring the cam bores and using a larger cam journal doesnt move the centerline. one would have to reduce cam journal size and make some eccentric bushings or bearings to move centerline.

If the idea is to move the cam UP, why would you bore the bearing diameters on centerline with the original? If the idea is to move the cam up 1/4 inch, you pick up the original diameter and move .250 up before you bore it Oversize. You lack of knowledge about working on these things just keeps shiningShocked

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