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steve(ill) 
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
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 Topic: Ford 4600 PTO
Posted: 22 Oct 2021 at 9:20pm |
Son has a 4600 diesel tractor that they were using to pto power a 8 inch discharge pump ( maybe 14 inch impeller ??) to fill a lake from the river.. Setting at a 10- 15 degree slope. Worked OK for first day 8 hours.. Second day they came back, tractor at high idle, pto ( water pump) running maybe 200 rpm ... Hydraulic filter hot, oil hot .... I told him to check the oil level, maybe the oil pump sucked air and lost pressure to the clutch and it started slipping..( hydraulic clutch) . Checked oil OK... tried 3rd day and same thing.. Took tractor out of service.. Im thinking to drain the oil and look for contamination ( worn clutch plates)... filter was new 50 hours ago .... hook up a gauge and see what pump pressure is and if it drops when warmed up.. Im afraid it needs new clutch and/ or maybe a new oil pump..
Anyone more familiar with this than me ? Too much load on clutch ? Oil got hot and dropped pressure ? Pump wearing out ?....What started FIRST ?
He does have a hill on the farm that is maybe a 15-20 degree slope and 500 ft long. When running a 6 ft bush hog ( last summer) he has complained that it drops in speed / slips as he gets close to the top. Told him to change filter and put an extra gallon of oil in it for test.. Not sure that helped.
Edited by steve(ill) - 22 Oct 2021 at 9:24pm
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DrAllis
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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Posted: 22 Oct 2021 at 9:28pm |
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I've never thought the running of any PTO equipment continuously while the tractor was unlevel was a good idea. I think there was a problem last Summer and it's now fried the PTO clutch at a minimum.
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steve(ill)
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Location: illinois
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Posted: 22 Oct 2021 at 9:31pm |
thats what i am afraid off....... wish it way Mechanical and not Hydraulic !
Maybe i will talk to him NEXT TIME about having tractor level and dropping the pump down the slope into the water..... Is a HYDRAULIC PTO OK to run continuously, like running a augur at corn bin ? I assume someone is doing that ?
Edited by steve(ill) - 22 Oct 2021 at 9:32pm
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DrAllis
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Posted: 22 Oct 2021 at 9:35pm |
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Any PTO should surely be made to run continuously BUT, one shouldn't expect good things to come from the front wheels being 12 inches lower than the rear wheels. As level as possible is best, so things get oiled properly. When doing field work, there are always hills up and down and on the side, but they are not continuous.
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Boss Man
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Joined: 03 Mar 2018
Location: Greenleaf, WI
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Posted: 23 Oct 2021 at 7:02am |
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To late now. Sounds like clutch is fried. How many hours on the oil? You say filter was changed? What about the oil?
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 23 Oct 2021 at 8:19am |
I put a pto shaft in the tractor 18 months ago. Split tractor to inspect clutch and pump at that time. Put new oil in it then.. Probably has 150 hours on the oil. Changed the filter recently.
Yes, im afraid i have to split again and check pump and clutch... Just wondering what cause this. What to do different. ---- and now i know !!
Edited by steve(ill) - 03 Jun 2023 at 9:54pm
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dp7000
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Joined: 26 Sep 2021
Location: Winchester Kent
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Posted: 23 Oct 2021 at 8:33am |
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I’ve ran a lot of Fords on pto irrigation pumps. I believe it’s always important to have tractor and pump as level as possible. We always ran at or near pto speed regardless of setup. Running at a slow or slower speed may not be moving oil sufficiently for extended hours of operation. Hope you haven’t hurt the tractor.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 23 Oct 2021 at 12:43pm |
He said he hooked it to the bush hog today and ran it in the barn lot for 5 minutes and looked OK............ I told him to bring in home... plan is
--Connect pressure gauge and see what pump pressure output is. --Measure pto speed to be 540 rpm at 1800 engine speed ------------ assuming the above works---
---bush hog an area for 30 minutes, then monitor pump pressure and pto speed when "warm" ..
I hope to learn if pressure drops off when hot, or is low most of the time..
---possible drain oil and look at condition / contamination --remove filter and examine ... --try new filter and clean oil if pressure is low when cold -- or hot ?
--- determine if pump or clutch is needed after testing above.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 27 Oct 2021 at 4:18pm |
Well, i might have lucked out. He brought the tractor back with the bush hog on it. Said it was "broke" because the pto runs all the time, but slips. I started the tractor up and at idle the pto / hog is running about 50 RPM ( not engaged), speed it up and it goes up to 200 RPM.. Engage the PTO and everything works fine. Speed goes up to 540 rpm. Read in manual and it says EVERYTHING is inside the case.. Pump / valve / clutch / pressure port. You cant check ANYTHING from the outside.. Saw some posts on line for testing pressure and oil level and they all pertain to the manual sliding sleeve engaged pto system... This one is called INDEPENDANT and has a hydraulic clutch and brake on the pto. Drained the oil and got 5 gallons.. Suppose to be 10 gallons for the "manual" system and 12 for the hydraulic ( according to the manual)... EVERYTHING you see on line says 10 gallons ( 39 quarts)...Dont know what happened to the oil. I was the one that filled it 18 months ago and put 10 gallons in it. Son said he has had a couple "DRIPS" but nothing major... all i can think of is it leaked slowly for a long time before noted and repaired. Looked into the case and at bottom saw the pawl arm that applies the brake when pto in not engaged. ALuminum casing ear had broken off... How , i dont know.. still dont. Took line off the pto valve INSIDE and put a gauge on it.. 220 psi at idle and 235 at 1200 rpm.. Book says 220- 240 with oil hot at HI IDLE... Cant hardly go above 1200 rpm with the cover off.. oil starts leaking out.
So pump is OK. Clutch has a 3/4 inch machined hole in the case OD ( oil drain?) and you can see the edges of 3-4 plates. All are straight, no warp, no heat, still have bronze thickness.
Went to remove external oil filter and it is hand tight.. Not leaking oil, but wonder if it could suck air ?
Reassembled the top cover and hydraulic valve. Put in 11 gallons of oil ( thats all i had with the original 5). Removed filter, flushed it out, looked OK ( only a few weeks old). and reassembled. Made a small dip stick to check oil level in the case thru the rear fill hole. Never have seen an reference in where to check oil level for the Independant PTO tractor... plug on side of case is at 10 gallons for the manual sleeve slide type.
The broken ear on the brake pawl will have to live with that. Total teardown to get under clutch to replace that. Only problem now is the pto rotates slowly when not engaged. Went to corn field and cut old stalks for 30 minutes, seems OK.. Took tractor back to Sons house. He has a hill that changes from 15 -25 degree slope and 800 ft long. Made 4 trips up and back down with the hog cutting dead weeds 4 ft tall...... all is well !! 
Edited by steve(ill) - 27 Oct 2021 at 4:25pm
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Boss Man
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Posted: 27 Oct 2021 at 6:46pm |
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Dont remember what tractor it was but if you slapped the PTO brake on at wide open throttle you would mess up the PTO brake assembly
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 27 Oct 2021 at 7:01pm |
This is all one system... move the PTO lever and it strokes a valve to send 240 psi to engage the clutch and at the same time fill a small piston to pull the brake arm off... It looks like a 2 inch long steel arm with a brass pad on the face that would set on the OD of the clutch drum and just stop it by pressure... no pin or anything to drop in a hole.
It looks like it is orificed down a little so the brake is slower reacting.. Just wondering if with low oil, i lost some pressure and the clutch engaged and not enough flow left to pull off the brake... or the brake engaged when the clutch was engaged due to low flow ?... but i dont see how that would break the little ears off the bracket that holds the arm.
Edited by steve(ill) - 27 Oct 2021 at 7:05pm
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 03 Jun 2023 at 9:50pm |
well i finally gave up and put a new PTO clutch in the tractor... This all started 3 years ago when the PTO shaft broke. When you pull it out, a thrust washer slips down inside the case. To get it up into position, i saw on You Tube that you cram a tube or grease down the hole and stick a broom handle inside and lift the thrush washer up and it STICKS into place while you install the NEW PTO shaft.. all that worked... Problems with SLIPPING started soon after and PLUGGING of the hydraulic filter and loss of pressure. I finally decided that the grease i used was MOLY and that was plugging the filter and later decided it had burnt onto the bronze clutch plates.....
Took apart for a second time 2 months ago. Plate thickness was OK, but plates were black, new plates were gold.. Replace plates, readjusted a few things, raised pressure 15 psi and back to the field..... Son cut 5 acres of 3 ft grass today in 3rd gear and said it NEVER slipped.. In deep grass it will try to pull the engine speed back on the governor, but NEVER slip the pto clutch..
Finally after 3 years, i think this is DONE !!
OH YEA... i also changed out the 20wt UTF and put in 10w 30 UTF ....Easy pumping in the winter and does not thin out (30WT) in the summer... Thought that might help maintain pressure to the clutch.
Edited by steve(ill) - 03 Jun 2023 at 9:57pm
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AC720Man
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Joined: 10 Oct 2016
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Posted: 03 Jun 2023 at 10:08pm |
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Glad you got it repaired Steve. I run one of those 4600’s for a friend of mine on his rotary rake. I’ve never liked how abrupt the pto engages even at idle. Hope it continues to function well for him. With a canopy and a new muffler it’s a loud tractor to use, requiring ear plugs. Other than that it does a good job.
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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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