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peterh 
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 Topic: Float/Needle carb issue on Model C
Posted: 02 Jul 2012 at 10:06am |
I have a 1947 Model C that I have fully restored, thanks in part to some of you (Steve in NJ being one) and your impeccable advice. If you subscribe to Old Allis News, I am the one who wrote the article "Mr Brubaker and Me." Well, the day I finished the decals and started to drive it out of the garage to take pictures, of course something went wrong and it wouldn't start. I made the determination rather quickly that it was due to the carb flooding with gas. It flooded so much that the air cleaner kept filling with gas, too. I took apart the MS carb, checked everything (I had just bought a repair kit and changed out all the gaskets, nozzles, etc.) and reassembled, and it did the same thing again. I have taken the carb apart 5 or 6 times now with the same result. I assume the problem is that the float is not working correctly or getting stuck which is not allowing th needle to close and cut off the fuel flow... I have adjusted every little thing, but still the same result. Has anyone experienced this before and maybe have some helpful troubleshooting tips? I have two different floats and three different needles. I have tried all the different combos, but it still seems to get stuck. I have held both floats under a bowl of water, too, but neither one has bubbled, which is good. I'm running out of ideas, and the grass is getting long.  Thanks to all of you in advance- Peter
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Steve in NJ
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Posted: 02 Jul 2012 at 2:27pm |
Pete,
You may have dirt lodged in the inlet part of the carburetor where the needle n' seat are located. Dirt, rust, and debris always collect in the back of that inlet port to the needle valve. When some of that junk loosens up it plays havoc with the needle valve hanging it open causing the carb to flood over. My suggestion is to remove the top of the carb, run a ball brush in and out of that inlet bore (remove the 90 degree fitting) on the work bench, and watch the crap fall out of it. Wash it out good and inspect it. It should be shiney clean inside and so should the threads that the brass inlet fitting screws into. Then reassemble the carb, cleaning the needle n' seat out and give it a whirl. That may take care of your flooding problems if that's what yer' having.... HTH
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 02 Jul 2012 at 4:14pm |
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Test it with lung power before spilling gas all over. With the carb apart and off the engine, see that there's free flow from blowing on the inlet fitting. Then see that gently raising the float stop all flow. Then let the float lower to see there's free flow and then turn the carburetor top half over and see that the weight of the float closes the flow off completely. Then install the lower half the carburetor with gasket and repeat the flow tests right side up and upside down. You will probably have to mate the needle with the seat or it won't ever seal. If they don't match, you may have a chance of grinding them to fit, though if one is old its already very worn. Kitchen cleanser, like Comet makes an adequate grinding compound and washes away easily.
Gerald J
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CTuckerNWIL
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Posted: 02 Jul 2012 at 4:31pm |
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If all else fails, measure the distance from the bottom of the float to the center split in the carb with the bottom half off. Then measure the depth of the bowl in the bottom half. If the float hangs down further than the bowl is deep, it can hang up on the edge of the bowl. There is a tang that can be adjusted to limit the drop of your float so it won't go down as far.
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peterh
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Posted: 03 Jul 2012 at 12:09pm |
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Thank you to all for your advice. I will try ALL of it and let you know how I fared this weekend.
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peterh
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Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 10:15am |
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so... i cleaned out everything (again) and put it all back together. I did slightly bend that tang on the float to see if that made a difference from it dropping too far and possibly getting stuck on the bowl. I started it up, and it ran beautifully. I ran it for about 20 minutes and drove it around the yard. I was cautiously optimistic the next morning when I went out there, but was disappointed to see a drop of gas hanging from the end of the choke shaft. I know gas should not be coming out of that. I tried to start it anyway, but the same as before- cranks over and over but nothing more. I have tried 4 different needles and two different floats. Do you think it is the carb body itself that may have a hairline crack somewhere that is allowing gas to slowly seep through, and thereby causing the flooding? I don't know what else to do to that float and/or needle. I guess the final resort is to find another carb body(MS tsx-154)...
?
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 12:37pm |
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Did you change the seat? It wears like the needle. Did you do my blow test to see if its seating?
Gerald J.
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Steve in NJ
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Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 8:39pm |
Pete,
Make sure you don't have a sinking float. Remove the float and shake it gently. If you hear a little bit of gas sloshing in the float, there's yer' problem. Float is taking on fuel little by little and sinking lifting the needle off its seat and allowing fuel to enter the fuel bowls. "Tuck" also made an excellent suggestion about the float pontoons hitting the inside of the float bowl. That's a common problem with the M/S carbs at times. Make sure those buggers aren't hanging up on the inside of the fuel bowl. Also, always shut off the fuel at the sediment bulb. Keeps the gravity pressure off in the line from the tank to the needle valve. I usually shut the valve closed on my sediment bulbs while the Tractors are running and use up some of the fuel in the bowl before I shut off the Tractor for the day.
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Chalmersbob
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Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 9:07pm |
When you replaced the needle valve, did you put a new gasket under it?
I had a similar problem with my G and remove the carb and shook it up and down several times and then did the "blow test" on the needle valve. It has been fine since. Bob
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peterh
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Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 10:01pm |
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Gerald J.- I did replace the seat. I have two and it seems to be doing the same thing with both. I also did perform the blow test, but I will take it apart again and try it once more. I did not try the "grinding with comet" suggestion, so that will also be the next thing I do. Thanks for the advice.
ChalmersBob- I did replace the gasket under the needle valve, too, so I don't think that's it, although good suggestion. I think I have an extra, so Ill swap that out, too, just in case.
Steve- ill play around with the float some more, too, to see if it is still snagging somewhere. good tip on the sediment bowl.
thanks guys. ill keep you updated/
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 7:20am |
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Shutting off the gas at the tank is SOP for much tractor operation. Saves the problem you are having and keeps the fuel in the tank when not used. It does slow getting it started because much gas will evaporate from the warm carburetor and you have to wait to start until gas has run to the carburetor again after opening that shut off valve. It would be slightly handier if the valve was a quarter turn ball valve.
Gerald J.
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peterh
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Posted: 11 Jul 2012 at 9:39pm |
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I ground the needle and seat with Comet to try to mate the two, I made sure the float wasn't taking on any gas inside, I put it in a bowl of gas to make sure it floated like it was supposed to, I made sure it wasn't rubbing against the inside of the bowl, and I performed the blow test again (which worked). I then reassembled everything and tried abou 20 times to start it before giving up for the night. All the suggestions you guys have given have been good ones, but something is still not clicking into place. I did shut off the fuel flow at the sediment bowl for the night, and I'll try it again tomorrow. Question: My original carb developed a crack in the bowl, so that is why I had to replace it. That one had a tiny hole at the bottom that gas would drain through if it started to flood. My current one does not have that hole. Should I drill a tiny hole there so I know right away if it's flooding instead of me guessing, or is that from the dept. of dumb ideas?
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Lonn
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Posted: 12 Jul 2012 at 6:21am |
Did you shake the float next to your ear to listen for liquid inside? Doesn't take much to mess it up and it would still float in a bucket of fuel. Did you tip the carb over and back when assembled to hear if the float is moving and not hanging up inside? I had my D19 carb apart (MS carb too) and it still leaks. I haven't had time to take it off again but I forgot to tip the carb upside down to listen for the float to make sure it moves freely when assembled.
Also did you check the float level setting. I don't remember what yours should be set at but my D19 is 1/4 inch from the gasket surface to the top of the float. Yours is probably the same.
Edited by Lonn - 12 Jul 2012 at 6:23am
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CTuckerNWIL
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Posted: 12 Jul 2012 at 6:26am |
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To check a float you need to hold it completely submerged in the gas and watch for air bubbles. Also shaking it and listening close will usually let you know if there is gas inside.
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Lonn
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Posted: 12 Jul 2012 at 6:32am |
 CTuckerNWIL wrote:
To check a float you need to hold it completely submerged in the gas and watch for air bubbles. Also shaking it and listening close will usually let you know if there is gas inside.
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You can also use warm water to submerge the float. Forgot about that trick. That will force air out if there is a crack. I've forgotten a bit over the years after having been away from real wrenching for close to 20 years. Tinkering at home isn't the same and no older mechanics to give you a hint now and then. In fact all but one of the mechanics I used to work with when I was at the AC dealer in Blooming Prairie is gone now. I miss those guys. Good bunch they were. Now I'm off topic.
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peterh
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Posted: 12 Jul 2012 at 1:43pm |
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yeah, i shook the float- nothing inside. i did the submerge test in a can of gas and also in warm water- no bubbling. pretty sure it is not the float. i also have it 1/4 inch from the gasket surface. Is it possible for a needle and seat to just never mate up? maybe I should just buy a new pair. Steiner sells it for $6.95. so not a big deal. Also, anyone have a comment on me drilling a tiny hole into the air chamber from underneath the carb. Some carbs already have this hole in there, but still not sure if that would just make matters worse... thanks Lonn and Tuck
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CTuckerNWIL
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Posted: 12 Jul 2012 at 2:01pm |
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Don't drill any holes. The bottom of the carb should have a sintered plug in it to drain off excess gas in the intake. That can get plugged up over time and not drain properly but should clean up with carb cleaner and soaking.
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peterh
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Posted: 22 Aug 2012 at 11:43am |
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thanks everyone for your advice. all good, but it turns out it was a magneto issue and the carb flooding was a result of that, not the cause. i appreciate the assistance !
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CAdon
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Posted: 22 Aug 2012 at 9:48pm |
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thanks to all including peter for the xlnt tutorial on carbs. learned somethings new even tho have done a few myself.
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52 CA, 41 B and a little B1 oh, yeah... and an 8N ford snuck in there, too.
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Chalmersbob
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Posted: 22 Aug 2012 at 9:55pm |
Well that is a first. The mag caused the carb to flood??? How does that relationship work?
Bob
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4 B's, 1 C's,3 CA's, 2 G's WD, D14, D15, B-1, B10, B12, 712S,
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CTuckerNWIL
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Posted: 22 Aug 2012 at 10:09pm |
Chalmersbob wrote:
Well that is a first. The mag caused the carb to flood??? How does that relationship work?
Bob |
The mag doesn't cause the flooding but if there is no spark and you choke it to try and make it run it will flood. It happens a lot quicker on a rebuilt engine than on an old tired one. I had that same problem on my WC before I found out the mag wasn't grounded good because of paint on the mount. It would only take a couple bumps on the starter with it choked and it would be flooded. I have since figured out this tractor likes the throttle only up 3 notches and you never want to turn it more than a half a crank with the choke on.
Edited by CTuckerNWIL - 22 Aug 2012 at 10:10pm
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Chalmersbob
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Posted: 22 Aug 2012 at 10:17pm |
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Chuck, he said it was flooded when he came out in the morning before he tried to start it. Bob.
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4 B's, 1 C's,3 CA's, 2 G's WD, D14, D15, B-1, B10, B12, 712S,
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CTuckerNWIL
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Posted: 22 Aug 2012 at 10:26pm |
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That would most likely be from flooding it BAD the night before and the gas was setting in the intake and hadn't all leaked out yet.
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peterh
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Posted: 23 Aug 2012 at 7:52am |
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what Chuck is saying is absolutely correct. That's what happened to me. The mag shorting wasn't directly causing the flooding, but that was a byproduct of trying to start it too much.
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