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Finally got electricity back today

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Stan IL&TN View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stan IL&TN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Finally got electricity back today
    Posted: 08 Feb 2022 at 9:46pm
Last Thursday we got hit with an ice storm and as it progressed and built up on the trees and power lines they came down. By that evening 140k were without power including us. I have a 7000 continuous watt Genrac generator so it will run most of the house so we were better off than most. Burned through 60 gallons of gas in five days before getting power back today. Not cheap to run for long periods but better than the alternative. My next door neighbor had a whole house generator installed 10 days ago. After the storm hit I told her to go buy a lottery ticket.
1957 WD45 dad's first AC

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Dan Hauter View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dan Hauter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2022 at 2:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2022 at 4:22pm
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Have a Generator outlet set up to connect my Welder as need be, as we live Rural and power failures occur almost routinely.  Almost not quite wish I had installed a LP Powered backup.
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Morpar55 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Morpar55 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2022 at 7:02am
I lived here in Indiana when we had a major ice storm back in 1991. The big power lines coming into the area all went down, and the town I lived in was out of power for 10 days. People out in the boonies like I am now were out up to 3 weeks. We used to have the power go out pretty regularly (like 4-5 hours every couple of weeks) when we bought the place 30 years ago, but our electric provider has fixed a lot of those issues. Plus we don't need to have power available every second of the day. When we built our house 4 years ago part of my electrical specification was to add a plug to the side of the house to connect the generator to the electrical system and an isolation breaker in the breaker panel. I have an old (1990 or so) Coleman 5000 watt gennie which will cover the furnace, well pump, fridge, freezers, and lighting with no real issues. As for hot water, well, the water heater pulls 4500 watts and the gennie just can't handle it with anything else going! The electricians kept brow beating me to have a Generac installed instead. It would be so convenient, as it would hook up to the LP and kick on immediately when the power goes out. This sounded pretty good, so I asked about the price. "Well, it should only be about 10 grand or so." was the response! In the 30 years we have been at our place we have had the gennie hooked up to the house (old one or the new one) 3 times! I can't see dropping $10k for that kind of system when what I already have will keep the lights on, the house warm, and the food good!
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jaybmiller View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2022 at 7:13am
gee Stan , you could have  NOT bought 60 gallons of gas  by going next door ! BTW, you burned about $400 Canucks...sigh....
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steve(ill) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2022 at 9:11am
Chris... the hot water heater normally has TWO ELEMENTS that are maybe 2000 watts on one and 2500 watts on the other....... They work together.... You could have a switch or disconnect on ONE elements when needed.. Would take twice as long to get hot water, but it would work.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2022 at 9:39am
I've always understood that a normal dual element water heater heater the top 1/2 of water first..when hot, it switches to heat the lower 1/2 of water. Bet there's a few Google hits about 'how electric water heaters work'.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Morpar55 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2022 at 9:49am
When I had issues last spring with the water heater not getting hot I dug into mine, expecting it needed a new lower heating element. Turns out it has a pair of 4500 watt elements, but will only use 1 at a time, top first then switching to the lower. Turns out my problem was the electricians didn't wire things correctly. They had 220 volts coming into the disconnect box, but only 110 volts coming out to the heater! The red wire from the breaker panel (hot by the way) was lying on the bottom of the disconnect box and the black and white wires were connected to the black and white wires from the water heater. This wasn't the only electrical problem I had with this company, but that's a story for another day. In the end I can deal with going to my Mom's or my son's house to shower if the power is out long enough we need to be on the gennie. The last time we had the gennie in use was 2013 when we were out of power for 3 days during deer season. A tornado came through and hit the plant where I work and then bounced around for a while knocking things down at random.
1959 AC D17 Gas with some updates
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tadams(OH) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tadams(OH) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2022 at 2:13pm
   Sure am glad I bought my generator before price went that high. Our generator has kicked on and ran and if we're asleep we don't even know it till we get up and the time on the stove is blinking. Of course I worked at Lowe's when I bought mine and go the employee discount when the employee got a nice discount and then the Lowe's card with free interest free for 1 year.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lars(wi) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2022 at 9:39pm
My sons house in Midland TX has a whole house back up generator(Kohler brand), last year during that infamous cold spell, his generator kicked on 3 or 4 times during that storm. One stretch was 18 hrs long. Had no problems keeping up with the load, as he has a natural gas furnace & water heater. If the power goes out during the heat of summer, he needs to be bit more mindful of the load, while running the central a/c, with an electric oven/stove, microwave, and the washer/dryer.
I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob D. (La) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2022 at 4:34am
Living down here in the land of seemingly never-ending hurricanes I finally put in a whole house generac this summer. Hope I never need it, but trying to keep up with 10 KW generators, especially in the summer or still hot early fall months got my attention. When we have one it's not unusual to be without power for 4 to 6 weeks. Hope I never need it but glad it's here.
When you find yourself in a hole,PUT DOWN THE SHOVEL!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2022 at 6:52am
Bob, by a second, spare 'backup' unit. That way you'll garuntee you'll never have a big,bad windstorm agin !Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnColo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2022 at 12:41pm
Kind of on the same subject, supposedly my great grandmother was concerned when they got electricity at the farmhouse that she made sure there was a light bulb in all the sockets so the electricity wouldn't leak out if the switch was on and nothing in the socket.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shameless dude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2022 at 2:17pm
i still gots my 90,000 watt genny foe sale, runs on natural gas. shucks you could have lit up a bunch of your town with this one! look at the $$ you missed out on
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2022 at 5:34pm
Actually, Jay, you're almost spot-on.

If you want a GOOD system, you have two generators... a small, and a large.

The term 'whole house' is subjective and risky:
Some people use the term to identify a generator which has automatic transfer, and will carry the full load of the whole house.  Others use the term to identify a generator which is not a portable that they have to connect.  Neither term clearly defines what the setup is.

As for cost, you buy a small generator, and you pay for it once when you buy it, and over and over again... when it needs the fuel system cleaned out, when you forget to add oil during long runs, when mice got in while it was stowed away under a bench... and you pay again, when you have an outage, and you can't make it run, so you go buy another one at a locally-inflated price.

When you buy a really big generator, you pay a whole lot for it, and then when it's exercised you pay for regular fuel use, and when it's serviced, you pay for the service company's bill for the professional technician to give it a regular visit, and then, when you have an outage, you pay for it's very hungry diet.

New generators are very effective at generating income for the seller and manufacturer.  They're also shiny, have all sorts of fancy microprocessor control features, and a downloadable app that you can give you something to fiddle with.

Old generators generate sneers from people who can't differentiate between grey iron and forged steel, cast zinc and plastic.  They have simple control systems, simple ignition systems, and nothing microprocessor-based, so that the lightning that's banging holes in the ground around you, is not likely to cause you to wind up without lights and heat.

Generators are hungry, and when they're running, they require a certain amount of fuel JUST to run... at no load, they need fuel to spin, to develop excitation current, to circulate coolant (liquid, or air), and maintain oil pressure.  This consumption rate is called 'base fuel consumption'.  Large generators have large base consumption, small generators have smaller base consumption.  Once a load is applied, the generator's fuel consumption will increase GENERALLY in proportion to electrical load... but not all generators are created equal.

Some have copper windings in the field and stator, some have aluminum.  Portables that are newer than the last two decades, will frequently be aluminum, while bigger gens, and older, will use copper.  Copper has naturally less resistance than aluminum, but it is heavier, and more expensive than aluminum.

Less portable, and higher quality generators have copper windings, and they run cooler...
And cooler generators generate less heat, which is WASTED energy.  Cheaper generators, with aluminum windings, are more frequently less fuel-efficient than more expensive, copper windings... and generators with aluminum windings will draw significantly MORE fuel as load increases, because the windings are shedding more heat at high load, than at a low load. 

So why TWO generators?  Because most of the time, you won't need much power for an outage, so locking out the heavy loads and dialing down to a small unit saves a significant amount of fuel.

Aside from the cost of fuel, a wide-area outage means that you might not be able to GET TO... or BUY more fuel.  An outage that takes down Bob's area, for example, may not be able to be accessed by road... and the only stations he could get to, might not be able to open and pump fuel, because THEIR power is out, too...  so having a great big generator, and a couple 5 gallon cans goes from seeming great, to a nightmare.  Having a 100gal overhead farm tank for agricultural service resolves that, but having a 100gal tank sitting around waiting for a storm, means when that storm comes (if the tank is still upright) the fuel in it very well could be significantly poor due to storage degradation.  Guys with a bulk diesel will be a little better-off,  municipal NG is great if you're not in a seismic zone that gets NG cut off when there's a major event... and finally, a 1000-gal propane tank or two... propane in that tank never goes bad.

The way you REALLY get efficiency out of a generator, under cold circumstances, is to capture the waste heat from the generator, and use it to heat your domestic water, or boost your domicile's hydronic heating.  Not easy to do on an air-cooled generator, but if it's liquid cooled, it's just a little plumbing-exercise a way.

By doing this, you take the entire electric water-heater out of the equation, and you reduce the amount of furnace fuel needed... because the internal combustion engine is ALREADY generating large amounts of heat that's otherwise being thrown away.

Stan's original report of his 7kw (and I only rate generators by 100% duty cycle) at 5 days for 60 gallons of gas comes out to 120 hours, so 1/2 gallon of gasoline per hour.

A gallon of gasoline is around 120,000 BTU of thermal energy.  If he's burning at 1/2gal per hour, that's 60,000btu of fuel energy.  The engine is about 16% efficient... that means that of that 60,000btu, he's getting 9600btu turned into mechanical energy, and the remaining 50,400btu is being thrown away as either noise, or waste heat.  A safe estimate of heat to noise, is about 90% heat... so 45,360btu/hr of heat is being sent skyward, and the rest is annoying the neighbors.

Let's say that Stan's house has an 80,000btu heating system, on an average cold winter-type day, his heating system is in HEATING mode for about 15 minutes of every hour... which means his system is pumping 20,000btu into his house per hour.

That generator's THROWING AWAY over twice as much heat, as his house needs to stay warm.  There's more'n enough heat left after THAT, to take over for the electric water heater, and that nixes the electrical load of those 4500w elements.

But I'm very happy to know that  everyone managed through that squall.  I was blasting  down the road to Albuquerque, made it all the way to Guyton, Ok before having to shut down for the night, woke up to a half-inch of ice, and radio reports of I40 closed at Santa Rosa due to a multi-car crash and traffic pile up.  We didn't even get much of a light dusting, all the heavy action went well south.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Lars(wi) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lars(wi) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2022 at 7:32pm
Very much informative Dave, but am a bit lost here. Are you upset that people have backup generators? Maybe I’m reading your response as a diatribe(if I’m mistaken, me bad).
I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2022 at 7:57pm
TWO GENERATORS ???.... NOPE !!.......... I have a small 7500 watt unit i got at harbor Freight several years ago for $500.   Use around the farm several times. Power has not been out long enough to use for that purpose.  Sets in the corner of the garage. I get it out every 4 months and run for 15 minutes and test output, then drain and set back in the corner.... Always starts on the 2-3 pulls. ..............

You cant ECONOMICALLY use the heat off the generator to do ANYTHING.. Waste of time and money.


Edited by steve(ill) - 12 Feb 2022 at 8:00pm
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2022 at 12:54am
No, Lars- I'm not the least bit upset, people SHOULD have backup generators... but they should do what Steve does- pull it out and run it regularly, so that it's always ready... and just as important, know what their house loads are, how much power they need at a MINIMUM, lock out what they don't need, and then size their choice appropriately.  Finally, just having a generator doesn't make for an emergency power solution, it's just a PART of it.  Having a plan that includes all that, as well as fuel source and storage plan, and sticking to the maintenance, it's all part of it.

You cant ECONOMICALLY use the heat off the generator to do ANYTHING.. Waste of time and money.

Steve- My generator shed has a 35kw Kato, a 12.5kw Kohler, and a 6.5kw Kohler as the primaries, they're all liquid cooled, and all the heating systems have heat exchangers plumbed to PEX tubing into my house.  My south porch floor, basement floor, basement and attic air handlers are all hydronic.  When the generators run, my hydronic heaters are off.   Economically, the integration of that is not particularly expensive, an Amish friend of mine uses a 4-cyl diesel to power his entire woodworking shop, and to provide heat in the winter, he bought a dozen baseboard heaters from the Re-Store, plumbed them all together with 3/4" Pex and one hand valve, into the engine's T-stat housing and block return.  How is that not economical?


Edited by DaveKamp - 13 Feb 2022 at 12:58am
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2022 at 8:44am
heck, I added a simple 'heat exchanger' around the B-vent in the garage furnace, I got  15%+- more heat for FREE ! Couple of used 'computer' fans,some wood and screws.

It'd be pretty easy to make a similar unit for a genny. Big deal would be to make sure NO exhuast fumes get into the 'room air'
Hydronic would be GREAT, SAFE EASY way or a SS heatexchanger....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stan IL&TN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2022 at 9:17pm
The neighbor lady's generator is 22kw and cost her $14k. I believe it's a Genrac brand. Her biggest complaint was she couldn't tell when she was on the generator. I would think that's a good thing but she is like Mrs. kravets and has to know because she is the neighborhood know it all.😆

I don't keep any fuel in my generator. I store it dry. Has worked for me since 94. I do keep 15 gallons of fuel on hand just because it can be an issue getting fuel due to downed trees and stations being without power. I cycle through the fuel 2-3 times a year as I use it in the mowers and motorcycles so that keeps it fresh and on hand.

When I complained on how much gas we were going through last week my wife just said worth every penny.🙄
1957 WD45 dad's first AC

1968 one-seventy

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2022 at 6:02am
I went for about 15 years with a portable from HF.  I kept it stored dry like Stan and never had one iota of a problem with them cranking right up when called for.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2022 at 4:12pm
re: When I complained on how much gas we were going through last week my wife just said worth every penny.

sounds like she's a keeper !!!

for the neighbour.. hardwire(NO on/off switch) an LED light into the genny power ,when gennys on...LEDs on


Edited by jaybmiller - 15 Feb 2022 at 4:13pm
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
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Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2022 at 4:36pm
My point was having a $500. portable generator is one thing.. Building a containment with liquid cooling and pumping to the house for extra heat is an added cost.. If your out of power several times per year, or weeks on end, it might be OK... Normally most of us are talking MAYBE once per year... maybe not even that..... Im not paying $4. gallon for gasoline to heat my house.

Edited by steve(ill) - 15 Feb 2022 at 4:37pm
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kurzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2022 at 5:17pm
  Howdy All,
  I went thru this all with many different ideas. And used them all. I went right back to the old fashion days for back up. Yes wood cook stove, wood heat stove and old fashion lanterns. All ready to go if needed. Best thing about it, its a lot of fun the old way.  Of course for a short time!

Kurzy
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