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Wispitfiremike 
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Location: Milwaukee, WI
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 Topic: engine stuck
Posted: 16 Jul 2019 at 10:17pm |
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Well, what we thought was a starter issue turned into something more serious, intermittent couldn't start with starter, went thru everything or so we thought. This last time we had bought another B and we picked up a hand crank to see if it was free. Now the original tractor seems to stick and not turn over at all. Starter jams and wont turn it over. Last time it did this not realizing it was sticking somewhere we bump started it and it ran great, no smoke or anything. Now with hand crank to check all this makes sense why were chasing starter issue. Couldn't possibly turn it over. Unfortunately we have to open it up, thinking oil pan to see if anything obvious and major, anything we should be looking for you can help with will help as we never had bottom end apart before. Could liner move? Slide up and down enough to slightly jam then move back and clear? Other thought was timing chain, never had open on this one either. Sad part is we just put water pump on it Saturday. Oh well. Was hoping to work on new addition to fleet. As always I appreciate your help and insight.
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Stan IL&TN
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Location: Elvis Land
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Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 2:53am |
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Take this with a grain of salt as I have never worked on a B but can make some assumptions it is similar to all Allis engines. There is no timing chain but a set of gears and the liners cannot move as long as the head is in place as it holds down the liners. If it were me I would pull the starter and make sure it is not jammed against the flywheel or that a tbroken tooth is not jammed holding it all in place so it can't move.
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1957 WD45 dad's first AC
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mdm1
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Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 6:11am |
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Do as said above. Pull the starter and see if you can hand crank it. The starter on my one B stuck in the flywheel. No way could I turn it over.
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Everything is impossible until someone does it! WD45-trip loader 1947 c w/woods belly mower, 1939 B, #3 sickle mower 1944 B, 2 1948 G's. Misc other equipment that my wife calls JUNK!
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bradley6874
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Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 6:39am |
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Pull the plugs might be water holding it
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DrAllis
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Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 7:24am |
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Make sure there isn't a bolt threaded into the side of the bellhousing jammimg the flywheel. This has happened many times.
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HoughMade
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Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 9:34am |
How long has it been sitting? If it happened quickly, say days of a couple of weeks- sure look for a mechanical problem.
If it has been sitting months or more, it could be the old rust in the cylinders. That's what happened to mine. It was sitting in the basement of a barn- even covered, the humidity rusted the cylinders that had a valve wide open. 2 was the worst. I eventually got it unstuck without a rebuild (head came off, but not the pan) and it has good compression and runs without smoke.
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1951 B
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 10:59am |
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Forcing an engine to turn over by turning the crankshaft or pulling the tractor in gear can bend the connecting rod on the piston stuck going up and that bent connecting rod can break and its remains often punch a hole in the side of the block.
Gerald J.
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Wispitfiremike
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Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 1:59pm |
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Hi the tractor sat for about a day from last run with the bump start but the starter wouldn't turn it then either, now it won't turn over with the hand crank we just got so now wondering if that was the same problem last time. Starter has been in and out several times spins fine but would not turn over engine. Tried hand crank with plugs out and won't budge. If timing gears not chain I think oil pan is next step, can it be done without removing the front end of a B?
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HoughMade
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Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 2:09pm |
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Yeah, just one day? Mechanical. Have you tried to crank the engine with the starter out? Sounds like a mechanical problem other than the starter, but it's one bolt.
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1951 B
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Wispitfiremike
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Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 3:39pm |
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Took starter out, wont turn, tried plugs out but with starter in, checked bolts that hold cultivator on to make sure they weren't making contact in bellhousing, really don't see option to dropping pan at this point. Are there thrust washers on this engine that may be allowing too much shaft walk that could jam this slightly then release if walked other direction for while? Grasping at straws hoping to avoid teardown, oh well.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 3:47pm |
I agree...not 'siezed' but mechanically 'bound up'. I wouldn't drop pan...maybe last resort...
I'd pull plugs and starter, keep them out until it's freed up. Any chance the PTO is engaged and boundup ? I know if you twirl enough tall rye with a rototiller, it'll STOP the engine.....
Any chance the tranny is stuck in both say 1st and reverse ?
Others who have that series tractor will chime in, just find some shade and relax a bit !
Jay
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DougS
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Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 6:28pm |
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Have you tried with the clutch disengaged? The transmission could be stuck in two gears.
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john(MI)
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Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 8:51pm |
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Might want to take off the rocker cover and make sure all the valves are there!
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Ted in NE-OH
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Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 10:03pm |
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There are four 5\8 bolt holes (two on each side) at the front of the torque tube, used to mount implements, if there are bolts in any of the holes they could be too long and hitting the flywheel, that will stop it from turning over.
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Dick L
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Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 11:42am |
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I would try to turn the engine backwards before taking anything apart (if) you don't have bolts in the side of the bellhousing. With the starter out you can turn it with the flywheel teeth using a large screwdriver or pry bar. If the piston should have a valve stuck or dropped down it should turn backwards some.
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Wispitfiremike
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Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 11:21pm |
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Hi sorry was working late today, the bolts on the outside we had on the cultivator were removed and tractor rolls in neutral with clutch out. Have had starter out but never thought to try to back up flywheel, will try that tomorrow to see if it has any effect. We have had intermittent problems with what we thought was starter for sometime but I think this issue is the real culprit just have to figure out what it is. Gained a couple more things to try tonight. Again thanks for ideas.
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WF owner
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Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 5:54am |
I see you tried removing the spark plugs? This is a heads up for other people that may have the same problem I did.
I (very) recently tried to start my D-17 (series IV). It turned a little, then wouldn't turn any more. The float in the carb had stuck and filled the cylinders and base with gas.
I never thought about gas. I suspected I had a coolant leak and it had filled the cylinders with antifreeze. When I tuned it over with the starter, it shot gas over 20' (so make sure you do it outside!!!) and, since I had just disconnected the plug wires, I had an instant inferno. My wife called the fire department, but I got it out before they arrived.
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 9:11am |
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WF,you didn't think that one clear through did ya?
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HoughMade
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Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 9:28am |
 WF owner wrote:
...When I tuned it over with the starter, it shot gas over 20' (so make sure you do it outside!!!) and, since I had just disconnected the plug wires, I had an instant inferno. My wife called the fire department, but I got it out before they arrived.
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Don't feel bad.
I had this Yamaha XS400 motorcycle that a buddy gave me that had sat for about 12 years. Prior to starting it up, I sprayed quite a big of WD-40 in the cylinders to lubricate the bore. I didn't mention that it was winter.....I was heating my garage with a kerosene heater.
When I kicked over the engine, WD-40 shot out the spark plug hole (I must have used a lot) and into the Kerosene heater....I put the fire out, but I nearly burned down the house.
Wait, maybe we both should feel bad.
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1951 B
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LouSWPA
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Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 9:39am |
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what don't kill ya, makes ya smarter! I've had a few plans in my life that I obviously didn't think all the way through! If I live long enough, I'll be real smart!
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HudCo
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Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 10:23am |
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check for stuck valves from old varnished gas mixed with new gas
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Wispitfiremike
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Posted: 21 Jul 2019 at 10:01pm |
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Update time, drained the oil and got a large amount of pure green antifreeze out before the oil came out. ? Removed the rocker cover and found some evidence that anti freeze was there for awhile mixing but more straight green antifreeze. Scratched our heads for awhile but then tried the suggestion that we try to turn the flywheel with starter out. Bingo it moves and it turns over with hand crank. Possible too much pressure from fluid quantity to allow it to turn over? Having never had head off is it possible to get that quantity of fluid without muddying brown from mixing from cooling system into oil thru head gasket or is next step to pull head off? As always the assistance is appreciated.
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frnkeore
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Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 1:02am |
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If it were me, I'd spit the tractor and completely disassemble the engine.
But, before that, I'd pull the plugs and fill with water and put 5-7 lb on the system, to see what area it leaks the most.
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Frank
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Dick L
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Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 5:33am |
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Plain green on the top of the head would only mean it is coming from core plugs that have a holes or more. If it came from a blown head gasket it would not be green after being mixed with a running engine. You could most likely put in new core plugs, clean every thing up and go back to running.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 5:42am |
sounds like 'hydraulic lock' ? where fluid fills the cylinder above the piston. seen that too many times on small riders where gas from tank gets past carb 'anti dieselling valve' then fills combusion chamber, THEN past rings into oil sump. Since yours was 'clean', oil and coolant separate,not a 'muddy mix', I agree with poster about , install new frost plugs, clean it up, fresh fluids and try starting her up. If you're lucky, she'll be fine for another 50 years !
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
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dt1050
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Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 7:07am |
Dick L wrote:
Plain green on the top of the head would only mean it is coming from core plugs that have a holes or more. If it came from a blown head gasket it would not be green after being mixed with a running engine. You could most likely put in new core plugs, clean every thing up and go back to running. |
dito
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Just cause it's orange don't make it a tractor, there's only one..Allis Chalmers
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WF owner
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Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 10:24am |
Dick L wrote:
Plain green on the top of the head would only mean it is coming from core plugs that have a holes or more. If it came from a blown head gasket it would not be green after being mixed with a running engine. You could most likely put in new core plugs, clean every thing up and go back to running. |
Good advice !
Always try the simplest and least expensive solution first. I'm betting the frost plugs are the problem. Even if they look ok, they may look worse from the other side.
There is no sense in pulling apart an engine that doesn't need it.
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Wispitfiremike
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Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 1:35pm |
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Freeze plugs or frost plugs it is, so next question where can I find them in Wisconsin?
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john(MI)
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Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 1:47pm |
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If it was frost plugs, wouldn't it be leaking on the outside and not internally into the oil?
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 2:01pm |
I think these 'frost plugs' are on the head itself , I've seen pix here of them..remove valcover, look straight down under valve train...
'frost plugs' is a bad name, maybe oversized Welch plugs is better ?? I think they're used to fill the hole after some 'machining' is done....
Jay
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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