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Electronic Fuel Injection |
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orangeman ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 1825 |
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Wrong Color but interesting retrofit....
~ Orangeman
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rw ![]() Silver Level ![]() Joined: 28 Oct 2009 Location: United States Points: 384 |
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We need a throttle body type, one that bolts right onto the manifold. The market isn't big enough to make it feasible I suppose.
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AaronSEIA ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Mt Pleasant, IA Points: 2564 |
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They make them from single barrel all the way up to big 4 barrel dual quad setups. All would be downdraft style. AaronSEIA
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plummerscarin ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 22 Jun 2015 Location: ia Points: 3782 |
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From the article, he just flipped it over? So I see a dual quad set up in the future for my G262. No wait tri-power. Just drill two more holes in the intake, some elbows and new flanges. 6 injectors fitted in near the intake valve. Yeah that otta work. All kidding aside, I do admire the project. Those Holley setups are pretty nice.
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jaybmiller ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Greensville,Ont Points: 24399 |
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hmm, would it make sense to find a reliable EFI engine( I assume diesel ?) and adapt to the tractor ?
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21425 |
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Well, here's the bad news. So, he gets 120 HP out of a 4020 gas engine that normally makes 95 HP. The fuel consumption is now 10.1 gallons per hr at that HP level, instead of only 8.0 GPH. For a 10 GPH burn rate you could have 160 HP 7060/8050 turbo deezel tractor and get something done. The fuel injection on an older naturally aspirated gas engine eliminates the coughing/sneezing when you pull the throttle open on a cold engine, but it in no way makes the fuel efficiency to the point of replacing a turbo deezel tractor.
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injpumpEd ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Walnut IL Points: 5074 |
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Dave Kepner is from here in Walnut. Pretty cool guy, and he has found his niche. Works good for cold weather chore tractors, and he does have a couple out and about on some pullers I guess, one at least running a turbo. Otherwise, I don't know anything else, so don't ask me questions lol!
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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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PaulB ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Rocky Ridge Md Points: 4949 |
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Right now diesel is $5+. I can get gasoline for $0.50. Although it is gas pumped from boats when brought into dry dock, as long as it has time to settle the water and then drain it off, it works fine for me. I'm doing as little as possible with all the diesels here for now.
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If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits. If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY |
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DaveKamp ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5973 |
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All he did, was flip the throttle body over... but he yanked the injectors, the throttle body's function is only to provide a way to control airflow, with a Throttle Position Sensor, and a Idle Air Control (IAC) stepper motor. Injectors are high-pressure type, he drilled and tapped the intake manifold for 'em. Anyone can do this to any engine- you need a throttle body which is somewhere in the vicinity of the original carb's cross-section... i.e., if your carb has a 2" throttle plate, find a throttle body off ANY engine that has a throttle plate that's about 2", or slightly larger. Make sure that the throttle body has a throttle position sensor, and an idle air control feature. The IAC is just a bypass around the throttle plate, that the engine computer uses to control the amount of air allowed through to control idle. When the engine is cold, the computer will compensate for thick oil and cold chambers by allowing a little more air through, but it'll TRY to maintain the programmed engine speed, by adjusting the amount of air allowed through, and of course, modulating the fuel mixture. To install injectors, find a spot on the intake manifold that can be milled flat enough, drilled, then tapped, to accept a common form factor of fuel injector. Finding an appropriate injector is easy- just look for a common automotive engine of similar cylinder displacement, and find out what part number injector they use. For a 226, that's 57ci/cyl. You'd find that on a 454 V8... but since the 226 is turning much slower, you could use a common 350ci-range V8 injector, it'll still flow plenty (you don't want too much, nor too little flow, with a slow-turning engine, being on the small side is better). Just use an automotive STANDARD type... a Ford, GM or Chrysler injector, as they're a standardized form factor... you can find replacement alternatives cheap. You need a fuel rail... nothing more than plumbing, and as long as it'll withstand 60psi of fuel pressure, and incorporate the bypass regulator, and not be routed by something that'll melt it and start a fire... you'll need a high-pressure fuel pump. One could mount one in the tank, or use an inline unit. You'll need a crankshaft position sensor, a camshaft phase sensor, a coolant temp sensor, an intake air temp sensor, an oxygen sensor, a fuel pump relay, and a controller. Controller can be as cheap and easy as a MegaSquirt, or as fancy as some hot-rodder aftermarket brand. I've used many, and recommend that whatever you get, use one that doesn't require special-license software or a PROM burner. Re-using OEM controllers (like the GM 7747 currently in my boat) required a prom emulator (Promutator) and a prom burner, in order for me to tune it all up with a laptop, then write the program to PROM. Modern systems allow a plug-in, and it already has rewriteable non-volatile RAM. Fuel injection systems are sensitive to voltage. You'll need plenty of cranking current, so that cranking sags don't brown-out your ECM. Not mandatory, but you'll want electronic spark advance. At this point, most DIY ECMs are native distributorless, using the crankshaft position and phase sensor, it's just four more wires and connectors to coils for each plug. And the performance increase you'll see in a tractor, will be slight. Running character will DEFINITELY be nice. Easy start, good cold-running character.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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steve(ill) ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 85918 |
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or you could tune up your old carburetor / ignition system........ and maybe use a block heater when the temp falls below 10 degrees outside !!
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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injpumpEd ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Walnut IL Points: 5074 |
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I do know that he has spacers made to go in between the head and manifold to house the injectors. Sure, anyone can do this stuff themself, but what this guy has done is worked with the computer company and experimented with it to give his jd customers a bolt on kit. The bad part is he is only 1 guy, who is 70 plus, so he won't be making this for a bunch of other tractors. It is indeed a very simple setup. Remember, not everyone is a tech savvy as you are lol!
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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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Joe(TX) ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Weatherford. TX Points: 1682 |
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A throttle body (TBI) from a late 80's GM 2.5L or a Ford 2.3/2.5 would be the simplest. The injector is in the throttle body. Use a Megasquirt controller. A temperature sensor and mass airflow sensor are also needed. Early ones do not need the crank sensor or oxygen.
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1970 190XT, 1973 200, 1962 D-19 Diesel, 1979 7010, 1957 WD45, 1950 WD, 1961 D17, Speed Patrol, D14, All crop 66 big bin, 180 diesel, 1970 170 diesel, FP80 forklift. Gleaner A
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Les Kerf ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 08 May 2020 Location: Idaho Points: 1106 |
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You beat me to it Joe! ![]() I used to own an 89 Buick with the 2.5 GM throttle body EFI; it always performed flawlessly for us. As much as I dislike magnetos, using a mag would simplify things. |
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DaveKamp ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5973 |
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As Steve said... cleaning up the carb, and having a hot magneto is the easiest, and simplest solution... Inverting a throttle body onto a carbeuration-intended manifold gives away basically all the benefits of EFI... it will be raining fuel down into the filter elbow. Remember- the intake manifold is heated, for the purpose of atomizing fuel droplets coming up from the throttle body. When one moves the injectors to the ports, there is no need for a venturi, thus, there's substantially less temperature change forced into the intake manifold, thus, it is less susceptible to buildup of frost in the intake. IMO, the best system, is just a carbeurator and a magneto, as you will NEVER need to worry about a dead battery, in order to get your machine alive. NONE of my emergency generators have fuel injection or distributors- they're all magnetos and (propane) gaseous mixers... operated by gravity and thermal expansion... no batteries required.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Joe(TX) ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Weatherford. TX Points: 1682 |
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You have a lot of misinformation here. 1. Fuel is not injected unless the engine is rotating. Air flow would carry the fuel droplets up. 2. Manifolds are not heated on tractors except for the distillate ones. The purpose of fuel injection is efficiency. Throttle body injectors have NO venturi. It is just a throttle valve and the injector. |
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1970 190XT, 1973 200, 1962 D-19 Diesel, 1979 7010, 1957 WD45, 1950 WD, 1961 D17, Speed Patrol, D14, All crop 66 big bin, 180 diesel, 1970 170 diesel, FP80 forklift. Gleaner A
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Les Kerf ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 08 May 2020 Location: Idaho Points: 1106 |
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When using manifolds that have the intake and exhaust cast as one piece there is a significant amount of intentional heating of the intake; not as much as my 1941 John Deere Model A that has the exhaust passages surrounding the intake passages, but there is quite a bit of heat transfer.
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DaveKamp ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5973 |
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No, I do not have misinformation there. Throttle body systems inject when the ECM commands an injector pulse event, which is INTENDED to be in response to either an ignition pulse event, or a flywheel position/phase sensor input. The engine rotating does NOT constitute a continuous airflow, in contrast, it generates airflow pulses, which is why we can 'tune' engines for a particular powerband- we take advantage of the pulsing nature of airflow events at certain speed ranges, adjust the volume and lengths of ports, runners, and the shape of a combustion chamber, so that it naturally WANTS to overfill itself at some desired speed... But industrial engines are intended for a continuous-speed labor role. The Allis engine is really clever in that the firing order makes alternation between right and left sides of the intake manifold. With the engine being substantially long stroke, and smaller bore, manifold velocities DURING the intake stroke are very high, while velocities during compression and exhaust are stopped, and at times, reversed. As the engine runs, airflow pulses alternate between the 1-2 port to the 3-4 port, while airflow pulses from the carbeurator oscillate up and down at twice the frequency. If you put a camera in a carb throat, you'll see at various engine speeds and loads, what looks like 'popcorn popping', that's fuel droplets from the updraft trying to decide wether to go up, or fall down. The carbeurator venturi's flow helps stabilize that, but as both you and I noted- Throttle bodies don't have venturis, because they simply don't NEED them. And as Les noted, the manifold IS heated, by conduction. Every carbeurated manifold is heated, either by conduction, or by ambient airflow. Those that aren't, are frozen. This is especially important on tractors, because they're low-speed/high torque engines, long stroke, small bore, with geometry that generates high piston speeds, high intake airflow velocities, to obtain maximum cylinder scavenging at hand-cranking speeds. High airflow velocities through small-throat carbeurators makes high pressure differentials across the venturi, and thus, lots of temperature drop across the divergence and throttle plate. The advantages of fuel injection are multi-faceted, but first and foremost demand is not efficiency, but rather driveability and manners. Cold-start with a key, no concern for warmup, no choke-fiddling, no flooding. The reason why it came into popularity in the automotive industry, is to meet emmissions regulations... the ability to run closed-loop mixture control, thus, keep the NOX and CO emmissions in check. Improved efficiency comes from not dumping excess fuel for a given running circumstance, and there's many aspects of the ECM's programming which helps accomplish this, the lack of a venturi DOES help, by not forcing that viscious drop in air/fuel temperature right when the fuel needs to be evaporated.
Edited by DaveKamp - 20 Mar 2022 at 2:32am |
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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bigal121892 ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 05 Jan 2010 Location: Nebraska Points: 808 |
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I remember the local auto dealer telling me years ago, with carburetor's, they would do one engine overhaul a week, after fuel injection came out, they were lucky to do one a year. No excess fuel running down the cylinder walls to wash the oil off.
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Joe(TX) ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Weatherford. TX Points: 1682 |
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Dave, I'm not going to argue the point, but you are overthinking this. For one thing the air flow is the same whether EFI or carb. The carb has to have airflow to work. The firing order is the same on all 4 cylinders. It's a matter of engine balance and not flow distribution.
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1970 190XT, 1973 200, 1962 D-19 Diesel, 1979 7010, 1957 WD45, 1950 WD, 1961 D17, Speed Patrol, D14, All crop 66 big bin, 180 diesel, 1970 170 diesel, FP80 forklift. Gleaner A
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steve(ill) ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 85918 |
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The air flow is a PULSE, but if you think about the motor turing 1500 rpm, and 4 cylinders sucking air, thats 6000 PULSES per minute... basically Constant air flow.
And Joe, you mean all ALLIS 4 cylinder engines fire the same pattern 1-2-4-3 .... I think there are some companies that 1-3-4-2 .......... "Normally" you have pistons 1 and 4 separated by 2 and 3 in the FIRE order... but that can be mixed. and a CAR normally works different than a TRACTOR on two items.. One is the motor normally turns a faster RPM on a car... and the car has a DOWN DRAFT carburetor, where most tractors have an UP DRAFT carburetor...
Edited by steve(ill) - 20 Mar 2022 at 12:45pm |
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Joe(TX) ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Weatherford. TX Points: 1682 |
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You are correct. 2 and 3 are sometimes swapped. Down draft is more efficient. The fuel is not drops but an atomized mist.
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1970 190XT, 1973 200, 1962 D-19 Diesel, 1979 7010, 1957 WD45, 1950 WD, 1961 D17, Speed Patrol, D14, All crop 66 big bin, 180 diesel, 1970 170 diesel, FP80 forklift. Gleaner A
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DaveKamp ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5973 |
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Mist is not atomized... it is small droplets. Droplets are NOT evaporated, and liquid fuels don't burn, and they don't defy gravity. The black stuff you see on your tractor's stack, is liquid gasoline, that came out the exhaust, because it was not evaporated PRIOR to ignition. Compare that to a gaseous fuel engine (propane or natural gas), you won't see it, because those fuels don't need evaporation prior to being introduced to oxygen, they simply need to be well-stirred with oxygen, and sent into the chamber. Zora Arkus-Duntov wrote some wonderful white papers on airflow velocity, pulses, and evaporation, and explained not only how his plenum designs counteracted the 5-7 cylinder 'shared port' limitations, he also demonstrated how the manifold exhaust bypass flow provided heat to greatly reduce droplets forming downstream of the carbeurator flange. He's credited with some wonderful things, but they weren't necessarily HIS revelations. Allis engineers were brilliant in their choice of firing order... had they used the same order as MOST other manufacturers, they would have had assymetrical pulses between neighboring cylinders. If you're an audiophile, and you listen to a hundred four-cylinder engines at idle, you'll be able to identify the Allis's alteration, because the timing of pulses front-to-rear get a more consistent fuel charge between all cylinders... they don't have two running light, and two running heavy. You miscalculated pulses, Steve- it's a four-stroke, so four firing events per TWO revolutions. With regard to frequency and smoothing, an Allis running at 1500rpm is making 3000 firing events per minute.... that's 50 per second... 50hz. The pulses you get from that, are what fluid dynamics guys refer to as 'audio frequency'... meaning, you can HEAR it. The hum you hear from a home appliance transformer, is 120hz (you hear the first harmonic)... that's a 'low bass' note. (A above Middle C on a piano is 440hz) HALF of those pulses are going to the rear two cylinders, the other half are to the front, that means 25 per second to the rear, 25 front. This is NOT by any measure 'fast'. 12.5hz per cylinder, is slow. Now slide it down to 500rpm, as the injector will HAVE to operate there... That's 8.3 revolutions per second, or 4.15 full cycles per second. Each cylinder is firing on one-second intervals... and amidst that timeframe, the intake valve is only open for a small fraction of angular rotation. The airflow inside the intake, at this point in time, is absolutely NOT constant. But an easy way to illustrate- take the lid off a TBI vehicle. Start the engine, watch it idle. Look at the throttle plate (it's closed). See all that fuel spray... hit the throttle plate, and then cascade down into the intake like a waterfall. With the throttle body inverted, it will literally fall OUT at low airflow rates. Here's some really good history on the earliest mass-produced fuel injection systems: Edited by DaveKamp - 20 Mar 2022 at 4:29pm |
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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