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AllisFreak MN 
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Joined: 07 Dec 2009
Location: Minnesota
Points: 1574
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 Topic: Electrolysys explained
Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 4:43pm |
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What exactly happens in an engine to cause electrolysis? Does it only happen in diesels or can it happen is gas engines too?
I don't have it (that I'm aware of) in my tractor family yet but would like to know more about it to try to prevent it. Are there signs to look for to catch it in the early stages to prevent major damage? I have a 433T diesel with no coolant filter and am not the first owner of the tractor, so don't have the history of coolant maintenance.
Do the gassers need to be tested too?
Thanks.
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'49 A-C WD, '51 A-C WD, '63 A-C D17 Series III, 1968 A-C One-Seventy, '82 A-C 6060, '75 A-C 7040, A-C #3 sickle mower, 2 A-C 701 wagons, '78 Gleaner M2
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DougS
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Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Location: Iowa
Points: 2490
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Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 4:45pm |
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Electrolysis or cavitation?
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AllisFreak MN
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Joined: 07 Dec 2009
Location: Minnesota
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Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 5:38pm |
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Both I guess. I thought they were one and the same.
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'49 A-C WD, '51 A-C WD, '63 A-C D17 Series III, 1968 A-C One-Seventy, '82 A-C 6060, '75 A-C 7040, A-C #3 sickle mower, 2 A-C 701 wagons, '78 Gleaner M2
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Charlie175
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Shenandoah, VA
Points: 6368
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Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 5:40pm |
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cavitation is the popping of bubbles at high speed on the surface of the sleeves. This erodes a hole in the sleeve
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Charlie
'48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD
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jaybmiller
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Greensville,Ont
Points: 24421
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Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 5:47pm |
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electrolysis is the movement of material from one place to another using electrical current to move it. one use... remove rust from old steel parts like fenders and such...another is to break water down into hydrogen and oxygen(cars CAN run on water !) BTW ANY time you have two different metals touching each other and a conductive fluid(like salt water) you will have electrolysis and one of the metals will get 'eaten' away.How bad and how fast depend upon the metals and how strong the fluid is.
cavitation is 'bubbles in a liquid'. bad news in hydraulic systems, as it'll destroy pumps in short order. One 'cure' is to have a tank( the reservoir) to be at LEAST 2X ths GPM of the pump AND have baffles to reduce 'bubbles' getting into the oil.
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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DiyDave
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Gambrills, MD
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Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 5:48pm |
Oh, and I thought electrolysis was removal of unwanted hair. My bad... 
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DougS
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Location: Iowa
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Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 6:47pm |
 DiyDave wrote:
Oh, and I thought electrolysis was removal of unwanted hair. My bad... |
That's called "getting old."
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DougG
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Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Location: Mo
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Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 5:28am |
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I think the big problem was in 301 diesels for some reason, never heard of it happening in a 433,thinking they may have added it for precautionary measure
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LeonR2013
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Joined: 01 Jan 2013
Location: Fulton, Mo
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Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 6:20am |
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If you test your water and keep the PH balance good you'll probably never have a problem with your liners.
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Lonn
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Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 7:05am |
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-- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... -
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tbran
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Location: Paris Tn
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Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 1:52pm |
doesn't matter what one calls it - it results in pin holes in the sleeves of wet sleeve engines and also metal erosion in the oring lands and block that allows coolant into the oil. Perfect 7 ph will almost eliminate , but not quite. The higher the hp and more rpms taken out of a given block the faster the failure occurs. Sleeve movement is the guilty culprit. As a side note, SISU is one the FEW if not the only engine I know of that has a MID sleeve mount that stabilizes the sleeve. Cavitation erosion or electrolysis seldom occurs in these engines. We see more issues in 7020's than any Allis engines as a percent to sales. There are also machine tolerances to contend with as well. If one gets a max size bore and a min size sleeve - the issue is more likely to occur. Ph test kits, coolant conditioners/'filters' and coolant change can help prevent this issue.
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When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..
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BigBadAllis
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Joined: 18 Sep 2009
Location: Michigan
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Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 2:21pm |
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As stated a preventative measure is to keep up on your coolant. Modern HD coolant can be tested for the SCA's (supplemental coolant additives) typically adds nitrites to the coolant to prevent the bubbles that implode tearing off chunks of metal.
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JPG AUSTRALIA
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Joined: 13 Sep 2009
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Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 4:28pm |
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8.3 cummins has mid mounted sleeves also
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pirlbeck
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Joined: 01 Dec 2009
Location: West Central IA
Points: 229
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Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 8:22pm |
From the Baldwin farm filter guide book.
HOW DO SCAs
PREVENT LINER PITTING?
Cylinder liner perforation is a
common cause of premature
failure in unprotected engines.
Liner pitting occurs as collapsing
air bubbles in the coolant scour
away at the unprotected outer
surface of the liner. Estimates
show that these imploding bubbles
can generate pressures in excess
of 60,000 PSI at the surface of the
liner wall. If left unchecked,
complete perforation of the liner is
likely. Technically, this scouring process is
known as cavitation erosion. While it
can appear anywhere on the cylinder
liner, most pitting occurs as a narrow
vertical band, perpendicular to the
axis of the crankshaft. A secondary
band may be found on the opposite
side of the liner.
The air bubbles are primarily the result
of vibration of the liner wall as the piston
travels up and down in the cylinder
bore. Therefore, any change in the
design of the engine which increases
the vibration of the liner (such as thinner
cylinder walls, longer sleeves or poor
mechanical fit) will increase the
potential for liner perforation.
To combat the effect of cavitation
erosion, all heavy-duty engine
manufacturers recommend the use of
SCAs. The SCAs coat the liner walls
with a hard oxide film that acts as a
barrier between the liner wall and the
collapsing air bubbles, but does not
significantly impede heat transfer.
While the SCAs cannot prevent the
formation or collapse of the bubbles,
the oxide film is thick enough to keep
the bubbles away from the liner
surface, thus effectively preventing
pitting of the liners.
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