This site is not affiliated with AGCO Inc., Duluth GA., Allis-Chalmers Co., Milwaukee, WI., or any surviving or related corporate entity. All trademarks remain the property of their respective owners. All information presented herein should be considered the result of an un-moderated public forum with no responsibility for its accuracy or usability assumed by the users and sponsors of this site or any corporate entity.
The Forum Parts and Services Unofficial Allis Store Tractor Shows Serial Numbers History
Forum Home Forum Home > Allis Chalmers > Farm Equipment
  New Posts New Posts
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Dumb question regarding PTO shafts and category...
 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Fantrum View Drop Down
Silver Level Access
Silver Level Access


Joined: 02 Feb 2021
Location: Missouri
Points: 240 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fantrum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Dumb question regarding PTO shafts and category...
    Posted: 28 Apr 2021 at 1:48am
Okay, I admit it. This is a stupid question.. But I cannot find a good answer on the internet. Please forgive me.

I have my 190XT with category II 3-point hitch. I realize (unless I'm wrong) that on many implements I can swap out the lift pins to make them category II as well. However, what about the PTO shaft? Are there differences? For example, a tiller that is cat I. Could I swap lift pins to make it cat II and have the PTO shaft function properly still?

I'm pretty ignorant on swapping categories, so forgive me.
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
DiyDave View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Gambrills, MD
Points: 53242 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DiyDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2021 at 4:36am
I don't think there is any difference in PTO, as long as its 540... and the correct length. Now hooking an 80 HP tractor to a 40 HP gearbox may have some consequences, though.  Make sure that the drive line has a clutch or shear bolt, to protect the tiller...Wink
Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need!
Back to Top
jaybmiller View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access


Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Greensville,Ont
Points: 24334 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2021 at 5:40am
You don't modify the tiller pins ! You buy a couple 'Cat1 -Cat2 ' bushings, that slide onto the tiller's Cat1 pins then hookup to the 3PH, CAT2 liftarms.
The PTO will be 'universal'..as long as it's 540 and 1 3/8", 6 spline unit.
Early tractors (Ford 9N,2N..maybe the 'B' ?) had smaller diameter PTO shafts ( 1 1/8" ?). They didn't have a lot of HP, so didn't need the bigger diameter shaft. Since then the industry standardized on ONE size-fit-all. Course there's another 'standard' for the 1040(?) RPM PTOs.....
Odds are real good, you've got enough HP to turn a 6' tiller. My D-14 can spin a 5' unit all day long.
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)

Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
Back to Top
PaulB View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Rocky Ridge Md
Points: 4928 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaulB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2021 at 5:55am
The problem of just swapping Cat-II pins or adding the bushings to a Cat-I implement and hooking it to a Cat-II tractor is; The Cat-I is 26" wide at the pins and Cat-II is 32" wide at the pins. You need the Cat-I sway blocks or no sway blocks at all, then you don't have proper sway control. 
If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
Back to Top
Dusty MI View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Location: Charlotte, Mi
Points: 5058 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dusty MI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2021 at 7:35am
We had an A.C.  "C" that had the smaller PTO out put shaft. 
917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express"
Back to Top
steve(ill) View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 85450 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2021 at 9:44am
the "original" B tractor and maybe some C were 1- 1/8 inch as Jay said ( the small shaft on the C might have been added over the years)... .Allis later standardized on the 1- 3/8 inch that everyone was using... all 540 RPM.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
Back to Top
Fantrum View Drop Down
Silver Level Access
Silver Level Access


Joined: 02 Feb 2021
Location: Missouri
Points: 240 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fantrum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2021 at 11:29am
Thanks, everyone! I greatly appreciate the feedback.
I've heard of these bushings for the lift pins. I didn't originally like the idea of them because it's just another part to lose when it sits in storage, but I can find solutions for that... other than the kiddos wanting to play with it, ha!

I'll look into the sway blocks, as that's something I could definitely see making a difference.

So would most tractors use the same length of PTO shaft? This is the part that still confuses me. I know PTO splines/diameters are universal between 540s and 1000s (separately).. Although I didn't know the B/C had smaller shafts - so interesting!

I'm looking to upgrade my garden plot this year, and even move it completely. I've looked into rear tine tillers and they're a bit expensive for my taste.. The used selection is kind of terrible as well. Alternatively, I can just buy a 3 point tiller for less and even accomplish more work with less effort. Definitely considering it! Just would prefer to not have to replace a PTO shaft (for correct length) if possible.

Thanks again!
Back to Top
Tbone95 View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Location: Michigan
Points: 11964 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2021 at 11:49am
The measurement from the end of the PTO output shaft to the center of the draw pin, and the height of the shaft to the draw pin is a standard number.  The length of the drawbar depends on the implement, where it's support bearing is, to the next u-joint.  If the tractor shaft to pin measurements are correct, the shaft that comes with the implement should work.  If it's lost or something....You can try another shaft, just be certain it won't run out of stroke when you turn a tight corner or go into a dip, and be certain it won't pull apart when going over a hump.
Back to Top
Fantrum View Drop Down
Silver Level Access
Silver Level Access


Joined: 02 Feb 2021
Location: Missouri
Points: 240 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fantrum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2021 at 12:19pm
Thanks, Tbone. Much appreciated!

I guess my last question, and one I didn't have previously.. So it's likely unknown what the gearbox HP rating is on used equipment, understandably so. So let's just assume my 90HP+ is oversized. Shear pin is practically necessary on the implement, but it doesn't have one on this tiller I'm looking at.
Is the best solution to replace the PTO shaft on the implement then? I assume so, to get one with a shear pin. I know prices will vary widely, but is this pretty much a deal breaker or is it fairly affordable with a low budget? Oops. Another question. My bad.
Back to Top
Fantrum View Drop Down
Silver Level Access
Silver Level Access


Joined: 02 Feb 2021
Location: Missouri
Points: 240 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fantrum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2021 at 12:27pm
Well, I think I found answers. Apparently many rotary tillers use a slip clutch instead of shear pins. Makes sense, now that I know it exists. Even if I did need to replace the entire tiller shaft assembly, they're pretty affordable. 

Thanks again everyone! Much appreciated!
Back to Top
steve(ill) View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 85450 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2021 at 12:31pm
our  bush hog mower has a shear pin... have a 5 ft tiller that has a splined shaff.. no shear pin.. we have used it that way for several years... If your tilling rocks and stumps it would not be a good idea... previous plowed field, or known grass field is doable.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
Back to Top
Fantrum View Drop Down
Silver Level Access
Silver Level Access


Joined: 02 Feb 2021
Location: Missouri
Points: 240 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fantrum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2021 at 12:36pm
Definitely rocks here in MO, lol.

This would be a previously untouched plot, so would definitely find some rocks. Heck, I dig 100lb rocks out of my front yard.. Guaranteed there's just as bad in the field.
Back to Top
Les Kerf View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 08 May 2020
Location: Idaho
Points: 1048 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Les Kerf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2021 at 10:29am
Originally posted by steve(ill) steve(ill) wrote:

the "original" B tractor and maybe some C were 1- 1/8 inch as Jay said ( the small shaft on the C might have been added over the years)... .Allis later standardized on the 1- 3/8 inch that everyone was using... all 540 RPM.


I have personally owned three (3) Model C tractors and they all have the 1 1/8" PTO shafts; my current Model C is a 1949 unit.
Back to Top
allisbred View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access


Joined: 28 Mar 2015
Location: Hanover Pa
Points: 1011 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allisbred Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2021 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by PaulB PaulB wrote:

The problem of just swapping Cat-II pins or adding the bushings to a Cat-I implement and hooking it to a Cat-II tractor is; The Cat-I is 26" wide at the pins and Cat-II is 32" wide at the pins. You need the Cat-I sway blocks or no sway blocks at all, then you don't have proper sway control. 
Going back to Paul’s point, you most likely can get by just removing one block if your cat 2 blocks have any wear. I put a ground down one on to use a cat 1 hitch bar that I only use for 1 job. Just make sure it doesn’t bind when lifting or will put extra wear one the joint eye’s.
Back to Top
HudCo View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 29 Jan 2013
Location: Plymouth Utah
Points: 3764 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HudCo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2021 at 5:16pm
also make sure the pto shaft does not bottom out and bend things up
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.125 seconds.


Help Support the
Unofficial Allis Forum