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fixer1958 
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 Topic: Drill Press Motor
Posted: 27 Dec 2020 at 5:06am |
I acquired a industrial drill press awhile back. Great big SOB. It's got a 3 phase motor. Not set up for that. Is it possible to wire it single phase? It says 'Baldor industrial motor' on it. Not any good at posting pics.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 27 Dec 2020 at 5:59am |
No you can't rewire(JUST wires) a 3phase motor to run on single phase. There are 'black boxes' you can buy to convert single phase into 3 phase BUT it'll probably be cheaper to just buy a single phase motor. I keep maybe 5-10 motors here,under the bench, just in case. Tossed 25-30 out due to the forced downsizing. A VFD is about $150, will work for you and give variable speed. A lot depends on $$ that can leave your wallet !
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fixer1958
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Posted: 27 Dec 2020 at 6:23am |
Thanks Jay What I needed to know. Guess I just have to match up the shaft and all that.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 27 Dec 2020 at 6:31am |
Hopefully the tag is still on motor!! It'll have HP, RPM, frame size. Shaft...check near pulley..usually 5/8, 3/4, 7/8 ,depends on HP. My gut says a 1HP, 1725 motor would be fine... Always happy to help if I can....
Jay
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fixer1958
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Posted: 27 Dec 2020 at 6:39am |
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Tag says 2 hp. 1725/850 rpm. Pic I have is kind of fuzzy, have to go look closer. Don't think it will be a problem if I can find the correct shaft size and length.
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Thad in AR.
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Posted: 27 Dec 2020 at 8:06am |
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Phase converters are quite common now days. I’d check in to that first.
I don’t know how portable they are but I was wondering how hard it would be to use them for multiple machines?
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 27 Dec 2020 at 8:21am |
here's one VFD... 130 Canucks....
though price goes up with bigger motors(HP...watts....)
problem with 'portable' phase convertors is cost. You need to buy one for the BIGGEST motor and then install 3* wiring throughout the shop....gets down to $$ ,time, labor.
example... https://www.amazon.ca/Grizzly-CD15-Static-Phase-Converter/dp/B0000DD5BA is 800 Canucks !!!
You could buy 5 of the VFDs, and each machine would have it's own 'controller' an dno shop rewiring involved. Also have a spare VFD ,just in case one dies...
Edited by jaybmiller - 27 Dec 2020 at 8:24am
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desertjoe
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Posted: 27 Dec 2020 at 9:08am |
Now,I ain't no juicetrician, but I read up quite a bit on the "Phase Convertors" they sell now for using a 3 phase motor on your shop's single phase supply. I priced a Phase Convertor for using a 7 1/2 HP 3 phase motor on my 3 HP shop compressor as it is getting sick and will require replacement one day. The problem with the phase convertors is that you will only realize a little less than 2/3 of the available HP of the motor. The phase convertor I priced was right at $260,,,still cheaper than buying, say, a 5 HP single phase motor. There are lots of higher HP surplus 3 phase motors out there, for cheap.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 27 Dec 2020 at 9:29am |
What Joe is talking about is a PHASE CONVERTER . If your 3 phase motor is a 208 - 240 v motor , you can buy several large capacitors and a couple push buttons and make a converter.. You use the two hot wires off your single phase 240 v ( like your welder) then put several capacitors on one of those legs and come off with a 3rd leg that is " out of phase" with your single phase wires... That SIMULATES a 3rd phase and can be used to run a 3 phase motor... Like Joe said, you only get about 70% efficiency out of that.. a lot depends on the capacitors.. Its a lot of TESTING to get everything right and to get the motor to initially SPIN.. I have made a "converter" for a 5 HP motor. You can buy them as Joe said..
What JAY is talking about is a NEWER TYPE CONVERTER called a Variable Frequency Drive... With the right VFD you get the 3 phase outlet "electronically" from a circuit board... The advantage is the VARIABLE FREQUENCY part of the box... If your motor is running 1750 rpm and you want to slow it down, you dont need another pulley or gear box, you just turn the REOSTATE knob and change the FREQUENCY from 60 Hz to 55- 50 -45, etc and the MOTOR SLOWS DOWN... but you still have the same HP as at 60 HZ. ............ this is certainly the way to go with a motor you plan to have for some time. Of course if the 3 phase motor is easily removed and can be replaced, a single phase motor is a good option if you have a cheap on....... IF you need the VARIABLE SPEED then keeping the old 3 ph motor and add the VFD is cheaper.
When buying a VFD, make sure you read all the SPECS for HP, SPEED and VOLTAGE in and out..
Edited by steve(ill) - 27 Dec 2020 at 9:36am
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 27 Dec 2020 at 9:44am |
Like JAY said, a VFD is a great upgrade.
--- you can run a 3 phase motor on single phase 240v ---you can vary the speed of the motor with the rheostat on the controller --- you can run the motor clockwise or counter clockwise ( FWD- REV)
here is another brand... as Jay said, they are getting VERY COMMON and several manufacturers.... NOTE--- YOUR 3 PHASE MOTOR HAS TO RUN OFF 208- 240V.... NOT 480 V.
Edited by steve(ill) - 27 Dec 2020 at 9:45am
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desertjoe
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Posted: 27 Dec 2020 at 11:29am |
 steve(ill) wrote:
What Joe is talking about is a PHASE CONVERTER . If your 3 phase motor is a 208 - 240 v motor , you can buy several large capacitors and a couple push buttons and make a converter.. You use the two hot wires off your single phase 240 v ( like your welder) then put several capacitors on one of those legs and come off with a 3rd leg that is " out of phase" with your single phase wires... That SIMULATES a 3rd phase and can be used to run a 3 phase motor... Like Joe said, you only get about 70% efficiency out of that.. a lot depends on the capacitors.. Its a lot of TESTING to get everything right and to get the motor to initially SPIN.. I have made a "converter" for a 5 HP motor. You can buy them as Joe said..
What JAY is talking about is a NEWER TYPE CONVERTER called a Variable Frequency Drive... With the right VFD you get the 3 phase outlet "electronically" from a circuit board... The advantage is the VARIABLE FREQUENCY part of the box... If your motor is running 1750 rpm and you want to slow it down, you dont need another pulley or gear box, you just turn the REOSTATE knob and change the FREQUENCY from 60 Hz to 55- 50 -45, etc and the MOTOR SLOWS DOWN... but you still have the same HP as at 60 HZ. ............ this is certainly the way to go with a motor you plan to have for some time. Of course if the 3 phase motor is easily removed and can be replaced, a single phase motor is a good option if you have a cheap on....... IF you need the VARIABLE SPEED then keeping the old 3 ph motor and add the VFD is cheaper.
When buying a VFD, make sure you read all the SPECS for HP, SPEED and VOLTAGE in and out..
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Yeah, Steve, 10-4 on both types of convertors. When I was looking into using the 3 phase 7 1/2 HP motor,,, the price of either type were some pricey and the issues with my present 3 HP went away. That sob is still running as we speak,,,!! I was leaning towards the Phase Convertor, as it was less dollars then the VFD and for compressor duty, I had no use for the extra dollars to have VFD. One of the things that suppliers of either kind of Drive will tell you up front, is that YOU MUST NOTIFY THEM PRIOR TO ORDERING OF ALL VARIABLES as there will be "NO RETURNS" for the drives!! That's a great price on the VFD you posted,,wished that had one at that price for the 7 1/2. Is that from amazon?
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DonBC
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Posted: 27 Dec 2020 at 3:44pm |
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Phase converters work but the motor might have about 20% less power, at least on the older units that I have used. I used a phase converter on a construction elevator and had to reduce the pulley size on the motor to make it work.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 27 Dec 2020 at 4:02pm |
Yup, phase convertor' need to be properly designed to work right. The 'made and home' ones tend to be maybe 60-70% ok....for some machines/uses. Some are downright SCARY...
Might be better to spend the coins on VFD unit or just a single phase motor Heck neighbour uses a 2HP treadmill motor/controller/power supply for his drillpress. Zero dollars for it, lot of machining though....
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 27 Dec 2020 at 4:44pm |
YEs Joe... the small 2 HP VFD above was from Amazon.
I looked on e-bay for a 10 HP Phase Converter.... this will be a box full of capacitors that SIMULATES the third leg for a 3 phase motor using only single phase input. There is two sets inside. ONE is to start the motor rolling, the other is at operating speed. It would probably have a small timer / etc inside to switch from START to RUN mode... Not bad for $200.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 27 Dec 2020 at 4:54pm |
Most of the VFDs that will handle 10 HP are about $400... I see a "new brand" on e-bay for $165- 200. I assume China.. it does say 5 year guarantee, what ever that is worth..
Again... THEY DO NOT CHANGE VOLTAGE, just FREQUENCE.. Your 3 PHASE motor has to have a 208 - or 240 v TAG on it.
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HD6GTOM
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Posted: 27 Dec 2020 at 5:37pm |
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I bought a Coates 3 phase electronic tire balancer at a consignment auction. For $68.00 I bought a black box that allows it to work on single phase current. It was made for the balancer. It works well. You should be able to find something similar on line.
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Joe(TX)
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Posted: 27 Dec 2020 at 10:18pm |
I have built 2 phase converters in the past. The motor on the phase converter needs to be larger the the one you are running. The run capacitors will help smooth out the pulses. The ones I built are self starting. My brother uses one that he rope starts with no problems. If you are getting less power you are doing something wrong. Remember, if a 3 phase motor says 30 amps, the single phase input needs to be higher like 40 amps. The same applies to VFD's.
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shameless dude
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Posted: 28 Dec 2020 at 3:52am |
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explain to me the difference on single/double/3 phase motors and why they are like this. not trying to be a smart azz, i just don't know, that's why i'm asking. i've just been around 120V and 220V motors you plug in. i don't know what category they are in tho.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 28 Dec 2020 at 8:36am |
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Joe, you can make a very SIMPLE phase converter without the "generator" motor.. You use two series of capacitors, one for the START and one for the RUN.. You need a way to switch them. Some use a timer... I use a push button.. Hold the button in and turn the switch ON, wait about half a second and let go of the push button.. The half second gives the START circuit time to get the motor spinning from 0 up to 1000 rpm... then the RUN circuit gets the motor running at correct speed.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 28 Dec 2020 at 8:47am |
Shammers... Current in the USA is 60 cycles. That means you get one sine wave or POWER BUMP every second... 60 times per minute... thats 60 cycles.... SINGLE PHASE current does that at 120 or 240 volts.. That is for RESIDENTIAL service.. You can get normally 200 amps ( small farm might have 400 amps).. That will run a welded at 50 amps or a motor up to about 10 HP (BIG COMPRESSOR).
What 3 PHASE does is have 3 sets of windings in the generator and give 3 POWER BUMPS or 3 sine waves 120 degrees apart ... it is still 60 cycles, but 3 times the PUSH per revolution.... maybe like boosting your hydraulic pressure from 1000 psi to 3000 psi. This is used in business and factories where you need MORE POWER... You also get MORE VOLTAGE.
Small business might run at 208 - 440 volts 3 PHASE. Instead of 200 amp service, they might have 400 - 1000 amp service. Large factory would be even higher.. 480 v or even 7000 volt motors and pumps.. Could be 2000 amp service.
Look at the power line in front of your house.. If there are TWO wires on the pole, that is SINGLE PHASE.. Probably 7000 volts, and then the transformer knocks it down to 240 at your house... If you have 4 wires on the pole, that is 3 PHASE + ground.. In the country that might be 12,000 or 34,000 volts running to the transformers ( propbably 3 on the pole) that feeds the FARM...... When you drive down the highway and see the BIG POLES or towers with 4 lines, that is 69,000 or 138,000 volts running LONG DISTANCE to the next city.. Them big green/ grey transformers at the sub stations drop that voltage down to 7000 or 12,000 volts for the small city or your farm.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 28 Dec 2020 at 8:55am |
BIG industrial generators put out 3 phase power... THe FACTORY can use the 3 phases... In residential areas they run ONE of the phase wires ( plus ground) to your house for single phase......... If you have a small generator for farm use, it is normally single phase and has a lot less windings inside ( cheaper).
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 28 Dec 2020 at 9:10am |
If you have 3 phase power running down your county road, it will have 4 wires like this.
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Tbone95
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Posted: 28 Dec 2020 at 9:19am |
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Steve, 60 hz is 60 cycles per second not per minute.
Effective voltage is higher by 1.73 times ( the square root of 3). This happens not because the peaks are higher, but because three line are cycling out of phase so there’s always something closer to a peak. Since the effective voltage is higher, current is smaller for equivalent horsepower. Therefore more efficient, less heat, smaller conductors can be used.
Also a smoother power, and starts much easier. Like starting a 3 cylinder engine in comparison to a single cylinder engine of the same horsepower.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 28 Dec 2020 at 9:23am |
YEP... just trying to simplify... and your right on the 60 cycles... my bad.
If anyone has ever seen a 3 phase motor run, the SMOOTH is very noticeable compared to a single phase motor.
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Tbone95
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Posted: 28 Dec 2020 at 9:25am |
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Most of that post was for Shameless, I know you know, and figgered the 60 was a simple oversight.
Happy New Years my friend.
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desertjoe
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Posted: 28 Dec 2020 at 9:53am |
steve(ill) wrote:
YEP... just trying to simplify... and your right on the 60 cycles... my bad.
If anyone has ever seen a 3 phase motor run, the SMOOTH is very noticeable compared to a single phase motor. |
That right there is SOOoooo true,,,!!
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Ray54
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Posted: 28 Dec 2020 at 2:06pm |
Well Shameless you got it now?  Cause I thought I had it  an now I am lost again. But that sine and cosine has always been a mystery to me. Angles an lines an planes I did ok, but that next step in mathematics .
Thanks for taking the time steve and Tbone95, at least the what it does make sense. As well as how it travels as a wave.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 28 Dec 2020 at 4:35pm |
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just think of a motor spinning.. Each revolution it gets a KICK ( lets say a spark plug fireing) to keep it rotating.. It does that with ONE set of coils.... Now put 3 coils in the motor ( 3 spark plugs / cylinders) and you see you get 3 KICKS per revolution
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 28 Dec 2020 at 7:51pm |
a water analogy, cause some reckon electrons to drops of H2O...most pressure washers are '3 phase' units. water comes into 3 small pumps, 120degrees apart in operation. Overall you get a nice,constant flow of high pressure water.. similar to steve's 3 cylinder car engine... as to why 3 phase...cheaper,easier to make motor and wiring. Consider a 6HP motor. You need a LOT of heavy($$) copper if it's a single phase motor (all power through ONE wire), when 3 phase, only 2HP in each of the wires, so they can be smaller(cheaper). Also real EASY to revese(flip 2 wires(phases)).
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shameless dude
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Posted: 29 Dec 2020 at 12:12am |
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thanks guys! i'll hafta go out and look at the poles and wires now. whew! maybe i can put the "machine" on 3 phase???? .....nawwwwwwwww! lol
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