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Dave H 
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Central IL
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 Topic: Daughter's Froozen Water Pipes
Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 7:04pm |
Well here is a good one. Daughter lives in one of those big azed subdivisions west of Chicago and East of Rockford. Folks on her street cry the blues in the winter about frozen water pipes that lead to upstairs. Seems the pipes run inside the outside wall on the north side of the homes.
Anyhow, SIL's pop was an engineer and he got into the issue with SIL and engineered some sort of fix (I never looked cus you know who knows it all) for the winter like maybe draining the pipes.
Life goes on and daughter's FIL has aged and don't get into that stuff any more. So Daughter was complaining lately that it is that time of year and they have frozen pipes and it just pizzes her off.
Bottom line, is there some sort of hillbilly, Yankee, or whatever type of ingenuity that would help keep the water flowing in those pipes. I know of the ole let it drip fix but somehow the water always gets turned off and here we go again.
Anyone know of any "tricks" to help with this dilemma?
Thanx
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Sugarmaker
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Joined: 12 Jul 2013
Location: Albion PA
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Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 7:15pm |
Dave, First thing I thought of was letting it run a little. Beyond that I don't think there is much magic? Find the frozen area and add heat and or additional cold weather insulation?? Miserable when you don't have water and can lead to damages when it breaks thaws and floods too! We hooked a welder positive on one end and the negative on the other and ran current through the system. I would not recommend this in a high rise or multifamily home. But it can thaw out pipes! That's about as hillbilly as I get. Now electric heat tapes can work but you need to know where to put them and be safe about it. More cold coming. The other thing is to run the tub full of water and have a bucket to flush the toilet with water from the tub! Also have some gallons of potable water on hand just in case. Regards, Chris
Edited by Sugarmaker - 23 Jan 2019 at 7:16pm
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thendrix
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Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 7:37pm |
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I have found that letting whoever turned the water off deal with the frozen pipes. That usually helps them to remember...... Unless it's me. I'm usually the one that turns the damn water off. Not a pretty picture when you live with three women.
Edited by thendrix - 23 Jan 2019 at 7:37pm
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mdm1
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Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 7:42pm |
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I guess I would have the idiot that put the pipes in come and fix it. Water pipes in an outside wall how doubt!
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Everything is impossible until someone does it! WD45-trip loader 1947 c w/woods belly mower, 1939 B, #3 sickle mower 1944 B, 2 1948 G's. Misc other equipment that my wife calls JUNK!
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john(MI)
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Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 8:51pm |
Find where the pipes run up the wall and remove the drywall between the studs. the warm house may keep them thawed. If they don't like the open wall, buy louvered doors, or some sort of decorative louvers, and run them up the wall over the area. You can also make sure that there is insulation behind the pipes. If that doesn't solve the problem, put heat tape on the pipes. The last time I installed it was in the early 80's and it was far improved back then, even had a thermostat on it. I imagine it would be even better now. The stuff I used was blue and about the size of network cable. You didn't even have to put insulation over it because it worked so well.
Anyway, this solution is a little extreme, but a permanent fix. And I would not drywall over the pipes if you put heat tape on them.
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Pat the Plumber CIL
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Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 9:12pm |
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Circulating pump on hot water line if you can get a return line back to the water heater. The hot water pipe may make enough heat to keep the cold pipe from freezing if the cold and hot pipe are close enough to each other.You could rig a Circulating pump and pump hot into cold under a sink. Put valves on each side. Turn off pump and valves when you want to use water.
No other route to run a couple pex lines some where warm ?
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You only need to know 3 things to be a plumber;Crap rolls down hill,Hot is on the left and Don't bite your fingernails
1964 D-17 SIV 3 Pt.WF,1964 D-15 Ser II 3pt.WF ,1960 D-17 SI NF,1956 WD 45 WF.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 10:10pm |
I would go johns route, but one better. run new pipes on the wall of the room up to the next floor. Put a frame / decoration around it and be done forever.. You have to find a location at the bottom, and at the top of the rooms to tap into them.. I run PEX , easy to use. Abandon the old pipes INSIDE the wall.
run NEW pipes from the floor up to the ceiling in one corner of the room.. Put a small lattice in the corner at 45 degrees to box it in.. Cant see much thru it, but heat will move thru to keep everything warm.........
Edited by steve(ill) - 23 Jan 2019 at 10:13pm
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 24 Jan 2019 at 5:56am |
I'm with Steve, abandon the outside wall pipes, run 100% new in an inside wall. Do it right, ONCE, and you'll never have to worry about it again.
Also... I'll lay odds the guy who 'engineered' the water delivery system also brought the weeping tile water INTO the house through a hole in the wall to a sump and you have to pump it back out ? (yeah, pet peeve of mine..see it in new houses all the time..)
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DMiller
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Posted: 24 Jan 2019 at 6:48am |
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Cannot agree any stronger. Grandmother's house was built that way, the pipes originally set to the inside of the insulation they used in the thirties (Rock Wool which is steel sl*g) but that insulation compacted and settled where nearly every year the pipes had to be shut off and drained, LUCKILY had not ever split. Dad and other Grandfather abandoned and replaced with pipes inside interior wall in the sixties all good after that.
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nella(Pa)
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Posted: 24 Jan 2019 at 7:07am |
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Maybe you could pull the pipes against the inside wall the best you can and fill the cavity with foam insulation.
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LouSWPA
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Posted: 24 Jan 2019 at 7:39am |
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Curious how much the building inspectors pocketed on that job
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Tbone95
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Posted: 24 Jan 2019 at 8:33am |
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I thought of the circulating pump(s) right off the bat. But obviously a re-route is a permanent fix, if you have the money to spend.
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klinemar
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Posted: 24 Jan 2019 at 9:36am |
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Steve's idea sounds like the best fix. And Lou is right the Home Inspectors probably got a Steak Dinner or some other freebie! I know my deceased Brother in Law who was a plumbing contractor in Detroit always said every Architect and Engineer should die a violent death ! He also said the Architect and Engineer have all of the time in the world to make their mistakes yours!
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mdm1
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Posted: 24 Jan 2019 at 10:02am |
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I guess if you could reroute the pipes though a closet or hidden space that would be an alternative. Or build a pipe chase in a corner if possible and go though there. If you know where the pipes go though and up the wall maybe put a small vent in that area to allow some heat. Check with the inspection dept and find out what the code is and what it was at the time of construction. A permanent fix will require some demo, redo and some cost. Good luck before the pipes break.
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Everything is impossible until someone does it! WD45-trip loader 1947 c w/woods belly mower, 1939 B, #3 sickle mower 1944 B, 2 1948 G's. Misc other equipment that my wife calls JUNK!
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Dave H
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Posted: 24 Jan 2019 at 10:26am |
Yeah Lou  , I wasn't going to get into the Santa Clause portion of that contract.
I don't understand how some of the pipes in the area have not burst yet. Her neighbors complain of the same problem.
Anyway the problem is 4 hours away from me, but I am going to do some research on the circulation deal that Pat referenced.
Thanks all.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 24 Jan 2019 at 10:36am |
how HOT are the other homes ??? even 2-3* WILL make the difference as to whose pipes freeze, also wind and IF there's ANY insulation ! slimey contractor got 'insulation' approval for the east side of the road, that night his crew removed and carried to west side houses...
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ac fleet
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Posted: 24 Jan 2019 at 10:51am |
The pipes are probably plastic, so welder won't work. Pipes in wall has always been a major no-no! Rout pipes to a safe place, if people don't like the looks,--- tuff s**t ! That wouldn't happen to be the Silver Glenn subdivision, would it? That's West of Chicago. I know a bit about that one!
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DMiller
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Posted: 24 Jan 2019 at 11:15am |
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Buddy of mine, bought a 'Pre Fab' home, not a trailer but assembled blocks that were installed onto a foundation then trusses installed over. Said saved close to $15,000 over conventional build and some seven weeks of construct time HOWEVER, had PEX plumbing piping some of which were routed thru attic space. Was fine for several years, insulation in attic essentially compacted as well separated in strategic spots due to peak vents draft. Came home from a two day fishing trip to a house flooded and iced up, pipe in attic froze then split then the attic warmed water flowed, ceilings let go in three rooms, returned to below freezing furnace could not keep up and faulted then secured and his house became a Igloo.
He and I swore off PEX after that, I know Copper will split, will leak, is a PITA to sweat solder but routed correctly should not ever see that type issue.
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Stan IL&TN
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Posted: 24 Jan 2019 at 12:39pm |
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The best thing they can do right now is turn up their thermostat to 80 degrees.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 24 Jan 2019 at 1:26pm |
IF PEX was run correctly ,it wouldn't have split or failed either..... it's NOT the tubings fault..it's the installers !!!
Jay
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JohnCO
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Posted: 24 Jan 2019 at 1:58pm |
I had a problem with a pipe freezing in my bathroom where the pex is in the outside wall for about 4'. I added another 1.5" of foam board to the outside wall in place of the wood and siding (old house). If it's below zero for several days I leave the under sink cabinet doors open but haven't had any problems since. I remember a friend telling me his wife came home from work early one cold winter day, she worked at a fast food joint. The building was prefabbed in the south and then shipped up north and put together. All the plumbing was on the exterior walls and roof. Inspector never saw how it was done and didn't have plans to look at. I guess the franchise owner and the building manufacturer made some kind of agreement out of court.
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tadams(OH)
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Posted: 24 Jan 2019 at 2:29pm |
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I have 2 places on the west wall in my house that the pipes are up the outside wall, it is pex and when the spray on insulation was put in they kept the pipes in and it has work great, I have 2' x 6' walls
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klinemar
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Posted: 24 Jan 2019 at 5:34pm |
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Brother in Law said that if there ever was an Earthquake in Detroit go to Taco Bell as all their restaurants are designed in California. He said when looking at the Blueprints for building one he recommended they change all of the plumbing from outside walls to interior walls as Detroit is a northern cold climate!
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 24 Jan 2019 at 5:46pm |
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PEX can freeze and "theoretically" does not split or break.. Its the old hard plastic CPVC that splits when frozen... That was part of the reason PEX was put into service. It does not split like copper or CPVC ........PEX should be the best option going forward.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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JW in MO
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Posted: 24 Jan 2019 at 7:22pm |
When I first moved in my house I wanted a laundry sink in the basement, only convenient place to put it was on an outside wall beside a 5ft wide garage door I suppose for small lawn equipment. I ran copper lines right up against the sheetrock with fiberglass insulation behind it. First winter they froze because the siding was 4' X 8' pressed cardboard crap so I replaced it with Smart Siding, been 20 years, they haven't frozen since.
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Pat the Plumber CIL
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Posted: 24 Jan 2019 at 8:53pm |
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2 types of pex ,Type A pex which is expandable and should not split when it freezes. That is unless there are several fittings and elbows in a tight squeeze. Also the fittings can split when they freeze. Normal pex , not sure of the proper name uses crimp fittings , that stuff does split when it freezes
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You only need to know 3 things to be a plumber;Crap rolls down hill,Hot is on the left and Don't bite your fingernails
1964 D-17 SIV 3 Pt.WF,1964 D-15 Ser II 3pt.WF ,1960 D-17 SI NF,1956 WD 45 WF.
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tadams(OH)
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Posted: 25 Jan 2019 at 2:51pm |
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Type A is probably what they use to raidiant floor heating
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