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D17 series IV Gear grinding

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cncman08 View Drop Down
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Joined: 02 May 2017
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cncman08 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: D17 series IV Gear grinding
    Posted: 04 Feb 2018 at 4:35pm
My D17 is hard to put gear with out grinding. I have done a bunch of reading here and I believe it has to do with the engine clutch not fully releasing when the pedal is depressed all the way. It seems like it will go in gear with little to no grinding when the ambient temperature is 30 degrees or less. Or even some times at start up when it's warmer. I think this happens because the transmission oil is thick and causes enough drag to slow all the moving parts through drivetrain to go into easier.   The transmission is full of oil. The clutch seems to work correctly in all other aspects. Is there any way to verify or correct this without splitting it? I have pulled the inspection cover and looked at the clutch while a helper operates the clutch pedal. One thing I have notice is that the splined shaft that i can see through the inspection window continues to spin even with the clutch pedal fully pressed. That seems wrong to me but I have very little knowledge of how this should work. Or should I be looking for a other problems. I want to get this corrected so I don't end up with a tractor that jumps out gear. Also I do wait a little bit after pressing the clutch pedal to put it in gear and I do come to a complete stop when shifting between gears.
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Stan R View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stan R Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2018 at 4:43pm
Need to come to a full stop to shift gears. Not like a car that has synchromesh.
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DrAllis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2018 at 4:46pm
If the clutch pedal isn't fully releasing the pressure plate when fully depressed, the tractor will want to take off and "go" just as soon as you begin to release the clutch pedal. Is this true or not??  If this is a recent clutch replacement, and it's been doing it ever since, I might think maybe it isn't being fully released. This situation would/will improve as the clutch wears in. That could take a while tho.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2018 at 5:02pm
Let's assume the clutch pedal release stroke is working properly. This would mean if the clutch pedal is depressed 100% down, when slowly released back up the tractor doesn't start to move until the pedal has come back up say 3 or more inches of travel. Your gear grinding issue would then probably be caused by one or two or three things. #1. the clutch disc splines rusty (from lack of regular use) so it doesn't slide freely on the clutch shaft. #2. the wrong clutch disc (series 4 is different than all other D-17's) and the hub is bottomed on the clutch shaft splines. #3. The hollow shaft the drives the hydraulic pump needs to have the inner brass bushing removed from it, as it is dragging the clutch shaft along, not allowing it to stop rotating. It is kind of like your appendix....it doesn't need to be there. Any of these three scenarios will require a split to correct or simply tolerate it by always IDLING the engine down fully and grinding it into LOW GEAR to stop things first.
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cncman08 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cncman08 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2018 at 5:55pm
Dr I would say yes that is correct that the clutch starts to engage when it released 2-3". I can see some rust on the splinters visible from the inspection hole. I am not sure of age of the clutch. I have owned this d17 about a year and the previous owner did not say anything about the clutch when I bought it. Would the splines I can see be the ones you are referring Dr?
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DrAllis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2018 at 6:44pm
Nope. Did it do this from the time you first got it?? or not??
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cncman08 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cncman08 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2018 at 6:57pm
I believe it has. I remember it donig it once when I was test driving it. I thought it was just me being unfamiliar with this particular machine.
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DrAllis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2018 at 7:04pm
I'd guess it's that brass bushing inside the hollow shaft dragging on the clutch shaft. Live with it or split it.
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cncman08 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cncman08 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2018 at 7:11pm
Where do I need to split to remove that bushing? Any special tools needed to do this job other than stands?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2018 at 8:07pm
Split at the flywheel. Pull out the hollow shaft and remove the bushing. New oil seals (2) and back together. Be sure the correct clutch disc with the shortened center hub is in it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2018 at 8:17pm
Be sure to replace the pilot bearing in the flywheel, as it could be rough/dry causing your complaint as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cncman08 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2018 at 9:37pm
Thanks for the help. I am sure I will have more questions once I get started.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote B26240 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2018 at 6:11am
I would fix it as no good will come from grinding gears .  The DR has given you FIRST CLASS advice, and will be standing by to help you further.   My number one concern is your lack of experiance and your safety .  If you can post pictures of your rigging to split the tractor especially the engine, with help from us you can do the job and it won't cost hardly nothing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cncman08 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2018 at 6:34am
I have experienced with rigging and I am very mechanical. I am a toolmaker/cnc programmer. I handle plastic injection molds up to 8000 pounds on a daily basis. I hope this experience will help. I will be looking for advice though to build some stands. I have a plan for the front half. I have not come up with a plan for the rear half other than I plan to support it under the torque tube.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2018 at 6:56am
re: tractor splitting
Any chance you've got an overhead steel I-beam? If so put tractor underneath, parallel to it.Use one chain hoist to support rear of 'engine half, another chain hoist for the 'back half'. Be sure to put blocks/wedges between the tire rods and axle to keep front tires from flopping around and causing no end of grief ! use solid wood blocks to support the tractor NOT hollow cinder blocks.
The nice thing about using the I-beam is it is EASY to smooothly split and then reconnect the tractor,chain hoists allow for precise alignment.
That being said I bet a lot of farmers used a stout tree....

Jay
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roger (NE) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2018 at 9:45am
May or may not be relevant to your situation but if the hand clutch is in neutral and you depress the foot clutch to change gears you need to hold the hand clutch back toward the low side a few seconds in order for the transmission gears to stop rotating. At least that's how our Series IV is and has been since new.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GregLawlerMinn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2018 at 12:23pm
To eliminate gear grinding when shifting, I place the PD lever in neutral, depress the foot clutch, shift into gear, release the foot clutch then engage the PD lever. May sometimes have to slightly release the foot cutcch some to shift into gear. Has worked well for me on my D14/D15 and D17s I have had.
What this country needs is more unemployed politicians-and lawyers.
Currently have: 1 D14 and a D15S2.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LeonR2013 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2018 at 5:50am
The advice Jay gave about blocking the steering is very important. And I like to tie the steering wheel also. They can turn and I don't even like to think about it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fred in Pa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2018 at 8:37am
I also had to take this bushing out of 170 n 175's ,ran into this problem when installing new clutch's .
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nonetheless ,still dead.
If all else fails ,Read all that is PRINTED.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tbran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2018 at 10:57pm
it should have been taken care of long ago, but there was a service bulletin on series four seventeens. The flywheel depth was increased to allow clutch to fully release..
When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cncman08 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 2018 at 6:56am
uploads/17006/20180207_0642191.jpg

Is the bushing I circled in red the one that could be causing the issue?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 2018 at 7:25am
Yes.   I've only ever had one that did it and it was a tractor from some other part of the country that was purchased at an auction. You simply had to grind gears most all of the time and it wasn't the clutch or pilot bearing. It was this bushing dragging the clutch shaft along with it. There are far more out there that this has never bothered, but once in a great while there is.........
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cncman08 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 2018 at 7:42am
Thanks Dr. You have given me a good list to start with. This is off topic but the valve cover gasket on this 17 is leaking a little also. I plan to replace the gasket. What is your preference a rubber or cork gasket?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Travis(NE) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2018 at 10:57pm
Originally posted by tbran tbran wrote:

it should have been taken care of long ago, but there was a service bulletin on series four seventeens. The flywheel depth was increased to allow clutch to fully release..
 
I am also having troubles with the new clutch fully releasing in my Gas IV.  I also kind of remember something about the flywheel depth being corrected to a deeper depth, but can not find any spec on it yet.  Currently my flywheel was cut to 1.435"
 
I've also heard about adding a shim between the Pressure plate and Flywheel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2018 at 7:28am
Adding shims under each pressure plate mounting bolt area and the flywheel does exactly the same thing as machining the flywheel to a deeper depth.  .030" shim is the same result as changing the flywheel depth .030".
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