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D17 Series 4 lift arm/hydraulic issue |
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Jesse175 ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 21 Mar 2020 Location: Hughesville, pa Points: 62 |
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I have a D17 Series 4 that I just purchased and I cannot get the lift arms to work. What could be causing this? how should I diagnose the issue?
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21655 |
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What do you mean ?? They are stuck in the UP position and you cannot get them down ??
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Jesse175 ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 21 Mar 2020 Location: Hughesville, pa Points: 62 |
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yes, they are stuck in the up position and I cannot get them down. It sounds the the control valve body next to the seat is also making an erratic noise of some type.
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21655 |
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Both rear levers on your hydraulic console must be clear forward. If they are, you have rusted linkage that is holding the traction booster plunger inward causing the arms to raise. On the back of the valve stack, near the fender, is a short aluminum cap. Remove the two allen screws holding it and remove cap/spring. Take a punch and a hammer and drive the spool forward as far as it will go. Replace cap and spring. You are now good for now. Don't touch those two rear hyd levers. Use the tall front outside lever to go up/down.
Edited by DrAllis - 14 Apr 2021 at 6:29am |
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Jesse175 ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 21 Mar 2020 Location: Hughesville, pa Points: 62 |
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I will give it a try this weekend. This is very helpful. I have not used this site very much but have found this a great tool.......
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21655 |
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This short aluminum cap is located directly above an acorn nut on the end of a cartridge.
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Jesse175 ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 21 Mar 2020 Location: Hughesville, pa Points: 62 |
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I got anxious to check into this and pulled the cap as you mentioned. It is the one closest to the fender. Sure enough, it was pushed back so I removed the spring and took a punch and pushed it forward. I then tried to move the lift arms and I had the back two levers all the way forward. I discovered that the front outside lever next to the fender is stuck forward and I tried to drive it back and it appears froze up. I removed the other 2 aluminum caps on the back of the control valve and noted that they have a spring and a screw adjustment of some sort. I remembered what my dad taught me - "don't F with it if you don't know what it is for." So, do you have other advise for me concerning how to free this plunger that the outside front lever controls? How hard is it to remove the cover above the control value. That way it would be easier to get to and maybe I could work the plunger back and forth and loosen it up? Not sure what the seals will be like if it has been this way a long time? Could this of caused damage to the pump being stuck like that? One more thing I found out. I tried to run it with the aluminum caps and oil squirted out the back side of the one value that is not stuck. Is that normal or is there a bad seal on that plunger. On the back of the caps there is a hole with a rubber seal and they are deteriorated and the one is totally gone. I am keeping a positive attitude and hoping for the best. What would be the worst case scenario? Are these control valves rebuildable? thanks for any help you can offer. I have asked alot of questions but figure it would be best vs. going back and forth.
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21655 |
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For me, being there makes it easier. But, as long as you give good descriptions, we can probably get thru it. First off, you will have two levers on the front bank at a minimum. You might have three. The one (or two) levers to the left are for your remote cylinders. The tall outside one is for the lift arms only. Are you sure the lift/lower lever isn't stuck on its pivot shaft?? That might be all it is and the spool is fine. Does the one (or two) short levers work ?? Pull back for RAISE......center is HOLD.....forward one position is LOWER and fully forward is FLOAT. The linkage rods from these two levers connect on the top hole above the pivot shaft. The Lift/Lower lever link rod is on the BOTTOM hole for correct connections. The aluminum caps must be in place before moving any levers !!!! The dust plug missing is common, but it lets dirt/water get into the spools spring area and that's not so good.
Edited by DrAllis - 14 Apr 2021 at 12:22pm |
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Jesse175 ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 21 Mar 2020 Location: Hughesville, pa Points: 62 |
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I just checked the lever that is not working (tall outside lever for lift arm) and the pivot point is good and linkage looks fine. I only have 2 front levers and 2 rear levers. I put the rear ones forward as you advised. The short front lever (closest to the seat) works well and I can feel the positions you mention above. The issue is definitely at the spool and I sprayed WD-40 on it earlier when I worked on it and I can now get it be move in and out but it takes great force to do so and I cannot differentiate any positions like the short lever. I assume I am going to have to address this somehow? Is this something that can be addressed without tearing things apart? As hard as it works I am not too hopeful that it will eventually move easier-barring and Act of God. It is hard to get to without taking the cover off the top of the spool. Anyway to work it back and forth to free it up from the aluminum cap end? i will await your direction and proceed from there. I really appreciate all your help. btw: my dad was a farmer and my brother still farms the 2 farms my parents owned. They are both gone now. Dad bought a D17 in 1962 the year I was born and traded it in on a 185 in the seventies. I located that particular tractor but the farmer who bought it from the dealer still uses it daily and will not part with it. I learned to drive on the D17 and wanted to get one for sentimental reasons and I also have a small farm that I want to use it on. My father had several different AC's and also used Gleaner Combines. He did alot of custom farming. His 175 had the typical 3rd gear issue and it appears all the gears work on my D17. I have not loaded it down hill though. Just held in the brakes and let out the clutch to see if it held. Not sure that is a good test method so will have to wait to try it on a hill with a wagon. Brakes seem good and overall I am happy with it. If I can get the hydraulics working I will be very happy. I am not real familiar with this site and perhaps can learn how to send a photo.
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21655 |
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Remove the rubber cap on the sticky spool and flood the insides of the aluminum cap with WD-40 or the like and keep working it. Don't break off your hand lever.
Edited by DrAllis - 14 Apr 2021 at 12:46pm |
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Jesse175 ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 21 Mar 2020 Location: Hughesville, pa Points: 62 |
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Roger that. I will give it a try.
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Jesse175 ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 21 Mar 2020 Location: Hughesville, pa Points: 62 |
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I just sprayed PD Blaster on it and worked it back and forth and I am not real hopeful. I will let it sit overnight and see what happens. If this does not work, what is the next step? Is the internal spool rusted? Is it serviceable? I have not tried to lower the lift arms since I was able to free the plunger initially. I am wondering if I put the rod forward and try to start the tractor if the lift arms will lower. I did not think of doing that. The sticky plunger is the one that has the aluminum cap which is missing the rubber end plug. I am wondering if over time the PO did not use the hydraulics and over time it froze up?
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21655 |
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The lift arms are not two-way cylinders. The require weight on the arms to gravity themselves downward when the Lift/Lower lever is held clear forward. Engine running makes lowering more difficult as there is a certain amount of back pressure in the system and that is normal. You can spray lube on the front of the spool while the spool is clear exposed. You can remove the aluminum cap with the hand lever in hold and blow all the rust and dirt off the spring and reassemble and heavily lube with penetrating oil.
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Jesse175 ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 21 Mar 2020 Location: Hughesville, pa Points: 62 |
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I need to purchase a manual soon. I need to add hydraulic fluid as it is really low. Not even registering on the dip stick. that might be contributing to the problem I am having. Can you tell me what I should use. Is there another option besides the Agco Allis Hydraulic Fluid? I was not aware the lift arms have to be weighted to go down. Wouldn't that be an issue when hooking up equipment?
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21655 |
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Modern Universal hydraulic/transmission oil is what you need. A-C or AGCO 821 or 821XL specs. Dipstick is to the left of the gearshift. Filter is under the battery. If you have a factory 3-point hitch, usually the hitch will go down with the engine off by its own weight. You might have an issue with the lift cylinders being stuck in the UP position if they have been there for many years !! Beware of that possibility. If your hitch is a snap-coupler, stand on the right lift arm while you reach for the lift/lower lever and hold it fully forward (or tie it forward with a tarp strap/wire).
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WF owner ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 12 May 2013 Location: Bombay NY Points: 4946 |
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As is normal, Doc goes above and beyond to help !
On behalf of those of us that have received advice from Doc, and several others (Mack, Lynn Marshal, etc.), THANK YOU !!!
Edited by WF owner - 15 Apr 2021 at 6:37am |
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Jesse175 ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 21 Mar 2020 Location: Hughesville, pa Points: 62 |
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I am very thankful for his knowledge. Hoping I can get my D17 issue resolved and it is a process for sure. Every step of advice has been helpful.
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Jesse175 ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 21 Mar 2020 Location: Hughesville, pa Points: 62 |
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I removed the alum. cap of the plunger that is sticking and it then moves freely by I cannot notice the different stages when I move the lever. Put the cap back on and it is pretty froze up. I tried what you informed me to "You can spray lube on the front of the spool while the spool is clear exposed. You can remove the aluminum cap with the hand lever in hold and blow all the rust and dirt off the spring and reassemble and heavily lube with penetrating oil." and this did not help. I tried standing on the lift arms and they do not even budge at all. Is there a way I can remove the spring on the back side of the valve after I remove the aluminum cap and pull out the plunger? I am confused why it works so freely with the aluminum cap removed. I was thinking the problem was the plunger or inside the valve body. Can you tell me what to do next? It seems like this is going to be a lot worse than expected. Can the control valve be rebuilt? It seems like it will be quite a job if it needs removed.
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Jesse175 ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 21 Mar 2020 Location: Hughesville, pa Points: 62 |
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It appears this tractor has had an issue for some time with the hydraulic and operation of the lift arms as there is slight rust on one of the cylinders which i was able to remove with polishing compound. I tried to put pressure on the arms with a heavy long bar with my entire weight and they do not budge.
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21655 |
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Sounds like the spool itself is free in the valve block and that's good. The problem is in the centering spring and its cups and detent sleeve. If you disconnect the linkage at the front and clean the spool end to be free of any dirt, spray WD40 on it, I guess I'd pull it out and disassemble the back end where the problem it. CAUTION: This ain't easy and there are four little balls that can fall out and then you really do have a mess. You'll probably need a seal kit for that one valve to keep it from leaking when you get done. I did one similar to this a couple of years ago for myself. It was all rusty from the rubber plug being gone for years.
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Jesse175 ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 21 Mar 2020 Location: Hughesville, pa Points: 62 |
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I am assuming I have to remove the cover on top of the valve block so I can get to it. When I disconnect it at the front will I be able to pull the spool through the valve block out the back in. I tried to remove the screw on the back of the cup and could not budge it. However, I need to use a wider and heaver screwdriver and that would maybe work. I was going to disassemble the spring and clean it all out and reassemble it. Perhaps I will not have to do that if I can pull it through and out the back. thanks on the wording on the balls.
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21655 |
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There is no "cover" on the top. That is the structure that the valve bank bolts to from underneath. If you get the linkage pin removed at the front, the spool will easily pull out the back, just make sure the spools end is CLEAN. Good luck finding a screwdriver to work on the back of the centering spring mechanism. I always clamp the spools front end in a vise (correctly...do not squeeze the ears together or they will break !!) in a horizontal position. Hopefully, the detents are in the hold position. I then use a good curved jaw vise-grips and push the rear spring cup forward and clamp the vise-grips on the piece you are trying to use a screwdriver on to break it loose. Once broke free you can disassemble things carefully and clean them up.
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Jesse175 ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 21 Mar 2020 Location: Hughesville, pa Points: 62 |
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thanks for all your help. I think I will remove the structure which you reference and that I called a cover so I can easily access the pin and make sure the spool end is clean before I pull it out the back end. Great idea on how to remove and disassemble the rear spring and cup to clean up everything. I am curious where the balls are located that can fall out if the spool is a straight piece from front to back? Just want to protect my balls. Some humor is helpful at time.
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21655 |
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Once you get half into removing the structure, you'll not finish removing it. Just get the E-clip removed from the pin on the front, blow some brake kleen and compressed air on the spool, rotate the spool and clean again and spray with WD40 and pull it out the back.
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Jesse175 ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 21 Mar 2020 Location: Hughesville, pa Points: 62 |
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still worried about the balls? Where are they in relation to pulling out the spool? I am confused where they are located if the spool goes from the front to back? are there indents in the spool and that position the level as you noted earlier?
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Jesse175 ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 21 Mar 2020 Location: Hughesville, pa Points: 62 |
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meant to say the lever in the different positions. Again, in reference to the balls. thanks
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21655 |
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Grab hold of the spring and the orange tube ahead of the spring and pull the whole thing out not letting anything shift or move. Lay it all out on a towel so things don't roll away.
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DSeries4 ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Ontario, Canada Points: 7472 |
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Before digging into the valve body, make sure ALL of the linkage under the console moves freely. Don't move the levers on top. Get your hand under there. There are a couple of pivot points that rust up over the years. If even one of those pivot points seize up it can cause your hydraulics to stay up (the linkage will be stuck putting pressure on the valve). Take those pivot points apart (tough spots to get to) and clean the rust off. Apply plenty of anti seize and put back together. Make sure the cam is not pushing on the valve and start the tractor. If the arms raise again it could be a problem in the valve. I have 5 tractors which have this type of set up. Only one had the valve sticking, which freed up very easily. All of the others were a seized linkage in at least one spot under the console.
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'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080
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Jesse175 ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 21 Mar 2020 Location: Hughesville, pa Points: 62 |
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thanks, I will be working on the D17 early next week hopefully and will make sure I check out the linkage very closely. I hope you have a good weekend.
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Jesse175 ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 21 Mar 2020 Location: Hughesville, pa Points: 62 |
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I checked to see if the arms would move today and have great news. They lowered after I held the long lever forward and stood on the arms. They came back up as well. So that gives me hope. It still will not release the lever as it should once the arms are raised and I have to do that manually. However, I am hoping that after I pull out the spool and clean it as you noted, I should click in the different positions like the lower lever does. I am just glad the arms are now moving.
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