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DSeries4 
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 Topic: D17 Series 4 diesel electrical woes
Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 7:10pm |
The electrical system has never worked properly when I bought the tractor several years ago. After I got it home, I fixed or replaced everything: Rebuilt starter and generator, many new voltage regulators, new wiring harness, good battery, all new gauges, key and push button switches, starter and manifold heater solenoids.
The problem is that it never charges. The ammeter never moves - it will not show a discharge when it is drawing a load, and it never shows a charge. I have tried several ammeters, all with the same results.
I have taken the generator and voltage regulator to my local shop several times and each time they tell me that everything is working fine when they test it.
They told me it could be a short somewhere in the wiring. A few days ago I took my ohm meter and checked each and every wire on the tractor - all of them have continuity. I also verified that the wiring matched the diagram in the operator's manual.
Before I put the dash and everything else back together, is there anything else I should check? I am at my wits end here. Everything else on the tractor works perfectly.
No, putting an alternator on is NOT an option!
I would appreciate any feedback. Many thanks!
Edited by DSeries4 - 23 Aug 2020 at 7:12pm
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'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080
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DrAllis
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Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 7:23pm |
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When you turn on the working headlites, the ammeter should show a discharge.
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DSeries4
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Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 7:34pm |
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I don't have the headlights on it. But it should discharge when using the manifold heater, and it does not.
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'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080
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Ed (Ont)
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Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 7:36pm |
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Did you polarize the generator?
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Alberta Phil
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Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 7:38pm |
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I'd say the ammeter is faulty. Have you tried another one that you know is good?
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DSeries4
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Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 7:43pm |
 Alberta Phil wrote:
I'd say the ammeter is faulty. Have you tried another one that you know is good?
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I always flash the generator whenever the battery gets disconnected, and the ammeters are good quality brand new ones from the vendors on this site.
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'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080
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DrAllis
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Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 7:51pm |
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Ammeter should be 30 amps, not 60 amps. Batteries are positive ground. I would somehow run an extra 16 gauge ground wire from the volt regulator mounting ear (the ear with the braided grnd strap on it) to the positive post on the grounded battery so the volt reg is absolutely grounded. I would temporarily ground the generator FIELD terminal and run the engine at full throttle to see if it now will charge.
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Ed (Ont)
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Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 7:52pm |
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Check voltage at battery with tractor shut off and tractor running with a handheld digital test light. Should be about 2V higher when running. So 12.6 not running and 14 to 14.5 running. Or 6.5 and 8 for six volt system. Quick test to let you know if anything is happening. All your current must flow thru the ammeter unlike a voltmeter.
Edited by Ed (Ont) - 23 Aug 2020 at 7:56pm
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Leadoff
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Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 8:21pm |
DSeries4
I have similar charging issues with my Series IV gas, new battery, OEM VR, starter solenoid, ignition switch. I believe my problem is the generator and plan to pull it apart and check the brushes. The simple tests I have performed show the gen is faulty. I tried polarizing, but no improvement. Head lights will move the ammeter to the left when engaged. System is wired as per Owners Manual for gas tractor
My Series III Diesel (similar to your charging system) charges well, but the battery is starting to go due to age. Head lights will move the ammeter to the left when engaged. My system is as per the Owners Manual wiring diagram for a diesel tractor. A new pair of batteries should solve the problem
Very interested in hearing of your progress. Sorry I don't have a suggestion for you
I fully support your position on alternator installment. Both of my D17 tractors were fitted with alternators, but I converted them to generator/VR a few years ago. I left the battery connections as negative ground, which I believe was part of the previous gen to alternator conversion. All the info I have seen on pos/neg ground indicates grounding polarity not an issue for these tractors (need to switch ammeter wires to match current flow, some coils are polarity sensitive)
Good luck with your project
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1963 D17D Series III. 1965 D15 Series II. 1965 D17 Series IV. 1975 185. 1978 716H. 1979 716H. 1965 780 Harvester/1R&DC. 1957 Model 73 SC 4 Furrow Plow
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Acdiesel
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Posted: 24 Aug 2020 at 11:00am |
battery terminal post on the voltage regulator should be getting power right off the amp gauge.
do you have a four pole or three pole voltage regulator?
sounds like a wire issues??
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D19 Diesel,D17 Diesel SER.3
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DSeries4
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Posted: 24 Aug 2020 at 9:30pm |
Acdiesel wrote:
battery terminal post on the voltage regulator should be getting power right off the amp gauge.
do you have a four pole or three pole voltage regulator?
sounds like a wire issues?? |
Using a 30-0-30 ammeter with a 4 pole regulator. Have power on both sides of the ammeter and at the VR when not running.
As mentioned, it's a brand new wiring harness wired identical to what is shown in the manual. I have continuity through every wire.
It's killing me!
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'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080
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DrAllis
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Posted: 24 Aug 2020 at 9:48pm |
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Ground the field wire at the gen to the battery ground post and fire it up full throttle and see what happens !! A fully grounded field makes the gen put out 100%.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 25 Aug 2020 at 10:18am |
ALWAYS remember:
The wiring harness constitutes only HALF of the electrical circuit.
The other half, is the chassis, which is frequently a LOUSY path.
A handy thing to have, is a 6 foot piece of 12ga wire with alligator clips on both ends. Connect one to the ground post on the battery, and the other to any place that wires are grounded to the chassis. IF that changes anything, it is because the ground path, from that point to battery, is bad.
Edited by DaveKamp - 25 Aug 2020 at 10:20am
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Brian Jasper co. Ia
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Posted: 25 Aug 2020 at 11:52am |
I have a D17D and the grid heater doesn't go through the ammeter so using it doesn't show up other than the increased demand when the engine starts. Your ohmmeter is not a good method of testing wires. One thin strand of wire shows up as low resistance but it will never carry the current needed for the system to work. The best test for all wires in the system is by load testing with a headlight bulb. Dr. A talks about what's called the "Quick Test". I always try that one first because it's quick and easy. When they don't respond to the quick test, here's how you diagnose it right on the tractor. You will need a set of jumper cables, a headlight bulb, a volt meter, and basic hand tools. For the sake of this discussion we will assume the tractor has it's original positive ground. First thing to do is pull the belt and disconnect both wires from the generator. You may hear of people leaving one or both wires hooked up, but don't do this because there is a test result you will not see if you do and can result in misdiagnosis. With the belt and both wires off, take the jumper cables and hook them to the battery just like you were going to jump start. Take the other end to the generator and touch the negative to the A post on the generator. It should spin fast like a fan motor with minimum arcing. Next while motoring, ground the F post with the positive jumper cable. The generator should slow down but continue to spin. If you start with the F terminal grounded you may not notice if the field circuit is open and your generator won't work without it. If you see plenty of heavy arcing at the brushes, and they're not worn, stuck, or the springs broken, the armature is most likely shorted. They can be rewound if you can't find a replacement. If the generator passed the motor tests, now it's time to test the wires. An ohmmeter is NOT a valid test. One thin strand of wire shows up as low resistance on the meter but is high resistance under load. A headlight bulb pulls 3 or 4 amps and is a good load for testing the wires. Use each wire in a simple circuit with the bulb. Bright bulb = good wire. At the regulator, test the BATT wire the same way. It should be hot at all times and bright bulb = good battery voltage supply. If everything tests ok at this point, look at the regulator. One mounting tab has a ground wire from the body to the tab around the rubber isolators. Buff off all rust from the grounded tab. If the system still doesn't work, replace the regulator. The $20-$30 units on ebay and from many vendors are JUNK. If you want it to work long term, look for a good quality unit such as Regitar, Borg-Warner, or a genuine Delco Remy. Follow these directions exactly and you will find out why it's not working.
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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DSeries4
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Posted: 28 Sep 2020 at 8:21pm |
Update: I did a voltage test through each and every wire in the harness. None of them showed a voltage drop. Removed the generator and connected it directly to a battery - it would not motor at all. One of the resident electrical experts on this forum told me that not all generators will motor, but can still generate a charge.
Put everything back together as per the wiring diagram in the operator's manual, even switched back to positive ground. The ammeter will now show a discharge when the manifold heater is activated (as it should), but it still refuses to show a charge (even after flashing the generator). I have not tried grounding the field yet, that will be the next step. My local electric shop has sworn up and down that the generator has worked perfectly every time they do a load test on it. I am also using a new Regitar voltage regulator. Anything else to check?
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'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080
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Lonn
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Posted: 29 Sep 2020 at 6:45am |
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What do you mean you "switched it back to positive ground"? Was wired negative ground earlier?
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DSeries4
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Posted: 29 Sep 2020 at 8:26pm |
Lonn wrote:
What do you mean you "switched it back to positive ground"? Was wired negative ground earlier?
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Yes, I had switched it to negative ground when I bought several years ago. I switch all of mine to negative ground.
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'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080
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Brian Jasper co. Ia
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Posted: 01 Oct 2020 at 10:58pm |
DSeries4 wrote:
Update: I did a voltage test through each and every wire in the harness. None of them showed a voltage drop. Removed the generator and connected it directly to a battery - it would not motor at all. One of the resident electrical experts on this forum told me that not all generators will motor, but can still generate a charge.
Put everything back together as per the wiring diagram in the operator's manual, even switched back to positive ground. The ammeter will now show a discharge when the manifold heater is activated (as it should), but it still refuses to show a charge (even after flashing the generator). I have not tried grounding the field yet, that will be the next step. My local electric shop has sworn up and down that the generator has worked perfectly every time they do a load test on it. I am also using a new Regitar voltage regulator. Anything else to check?
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If the generator won't motor, it has an internal fault and is why you're having problems.
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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Leadoff
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Posted: 12 Jan 2021 at 2:06pm |
DSeriesIV
An update on my earlier post from August 23.......which may help your project
Performed a total rebuild of the Generator using Delco 1100305/1100426 parts and purchased a new VR. I set up a simple temporary wiring loop for the Generator, VR, and an old 12 volt battery holding about 12.2 volts(purpose to confirm Generator and VR work together properly - eliminate distractions). Grounding of all components is critical, as many have noted/posted above. Polarizing the Generator/VR/Battery is a must - a simple Batt to Gen tabs tap on the VR prior to operation (I know you have done this but for others still discovering!). The Generator would motor very well when directly connected to the battery. Initial operation of the Generator would only yield about 6-7 volts. I was not a happy camper....
Internet research was very helpful and I have included some of the better sites/articles/videos below. There are many vintage Generator owners of cars, trucks, tractors, garden tractors, out there who refuse to succumb to alternators and have provided excellent resource material
Based on my new knowledge base, I started with my brand new VR, disconnected it from the test loop, opened it up, cleaned the voltage regulator and cutoff points (they looked fine - brand new), reconnected and fired up the Generator..........and voila full charging up to 14.2 volts!!. The cutout points seemed to work well opening and closing at the right voltages to charge the battery, and disconnect when the Generator was slowing down to stop operation, and avoid discharging the battery
After several test ops, I was confident I had reliable system. I wanted to raise the operating range of the charge cycle loop a bit to be similar to the voltages I had measured when using my Canadian Tire Battery Charger on the battery. Again based on Internet Learnings I adjusted the spring tab on the voltage regulator a VERY SMALL amount to increase the spring tension, and was able to move the charge cycle loop up to just below 15 volts
Now I will add the other D17 electrical components back into the mix, and do not anticipate any issues, as they were working well before. It should be easy to isolate an issue if necessary.
Other background....negative ground system as noted previously.
Key Learnings/Findings
-New VR points should be cleaned and gaps (points and air) checked prior to install -VR contacts might need cleaning if tractor has been dormant, and does not charge properly on startup......something to watch if not using the tractor on a regular basis -VR needs to be working properly or Generator and Battery can be impacted and potentially damaged. I believe my old VR points stuck together, overheated my Generator, and caused windings to short out
Internet Material
Excellent troubleshooting article by John T Nordoff applicable to Tractors Delco Remy VR Service Bulletin Mechanical Voltage Regulator Adjustment Guide Mechanical Voltage Regulator Diagnostic Guide Mechanical Voltage Regulator Bench Testing Adjusting (excellent video) General Info Mechanical Voltage Regulator and Generators
Hope this info helps you with you project
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1963 D17D Series III. 1965 D15 Series II. 1965 D17 Series IV. 1975 185. 1978 716H. 1979 716H. 1965 780 Harvester/1R&DC. 1957 Model 73 SC 4 Furrow Plow
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 12 Jan 2021 at 3:16pm |
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question... why did you raise the charge voltage from 14.2 v to 15 volts ? ... just asking.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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DrAllis
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Posted: 12 Jan 2021 at 5:12pm |
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But, a D-17 is originally POSITIVE ground ……..
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Leadoff
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Posted: 12 Jan 2021 at 7:38pm |
Steve(ill)
The battery charger I use (when all else fails) charges just below 15 volts (14.8) on my tractor batteries, and it has not been a problem. My tractors do not operate very much and spend a lot of time sitting around, so I try to get as much Generator "charge" when they are running. If they were operating in the field every day for many hours. 15 volts might be a bit high, and long term battery damage could occur. Most Battery Manufacturers indicate 14.2 to 14.4 is the recommended max charge voltage. If the tractor is operating regularly, and getting lots of run time, lower charging voltage in the 12.8 to 13.5 range should be fine, and is more the norm
I wanted to show readers that adjustment to the VR charge voltage range is possible, in case a higher control setting is desired.
There a whole other world inside the VR Black Box, as I learned in this exercise
DrAllis When I purchased the D17 many years ago, the previous owner had converted it to an Alternator System and negative ground. I decided to continue with the negative ground setup when I switched back to the Generator. I have read where some ignition coils are polarity sensitive and the VR I purchased was suitable for positive or negative ground systems
Thank-you for the questions...........
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1963 D17D Series III. 1965 D15 Series II. 1965 D17 Series IV. 1975 185. 1978 716H. 1979 716H. 1965 780 Harvester/1R&DC. 1957 Model 73 SC 4 Furrow Plow
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DSeries4
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Posted: 12 Jan 2021 at 9:00pm |
Thanks for that information! Definitely worth checking out when things get warmer outside. I have all of my tractors switched to negative ground In case I need to boost one off another. I have not been a big fan of the new voltage regulators, but your advice may help. Appreciate it!
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'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080
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HD6GTOM
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Posted: 14 Jan 2021 at 5:38pm |
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Did you flash the voltage regulator? I bought 1 from Steve at B&B, the instructions that Came with it instructed me to flash it. I had not read the directions when I installed it. It didn't work until I flashed it.
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mike1949
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Posted: 16 Jan 2021 at 5:51pm |
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I have a1958 d17 ac diesel postive ground that everyway i hook up batteries and starter it smokes the battery cables, its has two six volt in series. I have new rebuilt starter, new switch and solonoid switch , plus new batteries. Its has two positive grounds cables to frame one a braided cable and one not. If anyone has an idea how this is suppose to be wired from batteries and starter i would appreciate it. Really grown tired of rolling off hill to start. My email is mike.gravely@frontier.com thanks in advance
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Jim.ME
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Posted: 16 Jan 2021 at 6:25pm |
mike1949,
Two positive ground cables??? If you hook two six volt batteries in series for twelve volts (positive ground), the negative terminal cable from one battery goes to the solenoid. The positive terminal of that battery is connected to the negative terminal of the second battery with a cable. The positive terminal of the second battery is grounded to the chassis with a cable. Only one ground cable. The cable between the posts of the two battery, I would call a jumper or connector cable.
If you have grounded both positive terminals that is incorrect for series. Parallel would have both grounded and both negatives would go to the solenoid.
Just a hint you might do better on answers if you start your own post, so your issue (starting) doesn't get confused with the original one, which in this case is charging.
Edited by Jim.ME - 17 Jan 2021 at 7:03am
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Leadoff
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Posted: 25 Jun 2021 at 8:32pm |
DSeries4
An update on my earlier post from Jan 12/2021 which may help your project
I installed the rebuilt Generator and new VR on the D17IV Gas this week, as we finally were able to travel (we winter in Calgary - summer in Eastern Ontario - where tractor is located; rebuild and testing was on my workbench in Calgary). Before installing on the tractor, I pulled the VR apart to check the points, gave them a light sand 2000 grit, made sure all the grounds on the Generator/VR/Battery were shiny, and the Generator/VR started charging right away. The VR did have a bit of sheen on the points surface so not sure if that would have limited the performance.
Oh yes, I polarized as well!!
My D15 II and D17D III were slow to start charging, after the winter layoff, and I was ready to check the VR points, when they slowly came up into full charging range. It took about 5 min for each to reach full charging range. Normally they come up quickly when operating on a regular basis.
I probably should have cleaned their VR points. It might have helped. It sure would not have hurt the situation.
It is very satisfying to have these three tractors, mid sixties vintage, charging the battery the way they were designed.
I believe you can make the Generator/VR system work
Most of the examples I reviewed on YouTube (Garden Tractors/Cars/Tractors/etc), following the Generator rebuild, started with a simple test loop on a bench of Gen, VR, Battery. In most cases they turned the Generator with a motor or hand drill (I used a drill in Calgary) to prove out the charging system, eliminating all non-essential items like switches, ammeter, etc. This approach worked for me, so I knew the Gen/VR would work together to charge the battery
Hope this helps you with your project
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1963 D17D Series III. 1965 D15 Series II. 1965 D17 Series IV. 1975 185. 1978 716H. 1979 716H. 1965 780 Harvester/1R&DC. 1957 Model 73 SC 4 Furrow Plow
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DSeries4
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Posted: 25 Jun 2021 at 10:32pm |
Thanks for the feedback. I how not really done much with them since I put up this post. I am working on clearing some projects off of my plate now. Hopefully in a month I can play around with things. I am leaning towards the voltage regulator.
Can't figure out why the generator and VR work perfectly when I take them to my local auto shop. They work great for him, but not for me.
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'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 26 Jun 2021 at 8:51am |
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you said with the tractor OFF and turn on the HEATER, that nothing shows on the amp meter.... that would have nothing to do with the generator or VR......but that does not mean that the VR or gen couldn't also have a problem.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Stan R
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Posted: 26 Jun 2021 at 8:57am |
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Yeah I know you are against an alternator conversion, but I had problems with ours not charging. You should truly reconsider it though, as a few years ago I changed ours for about $350 (alternator, new wiring harness, key switch, volt meter and electronic ignition) and 4 hours of labor.
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