| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
tractorboy 
Silver Level
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Location: southern Va
Points: 475
|
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote  Reply
 Topic: d-17 seized up
Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 12:53pm |
|
I got a 1958 d-17 at an estate auction, was sold with engine locked up, said it needed a crank & bearings which actually was included in the sale. The engine is apart in the basement. It seems to have had a complete overhaul. The front & rear mains seems to be what seized, while the center main still had what appeared to be assembly lube !! It had no oil pump when I dropped the pan. So i'm in search of an oil pump, also the front cam bushing hole is only bout half lined up, and the center one has only one hole while the book says these older ones had 2. Would this stop the oil flow & seize the bearings?? Sorry for the long post, I got more questions than answers right now!! Thanks keith so va
|
 |
|
Sponsored Links
|
|
|
Albert
Silver Level
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: NW MO
Points: 410
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 7:56pm |
|
If the Mains spun I have always had the block line bored or line honed also. the pump from a WD 45 I am sure will work if you were particular get one with a floating screen.
|
|
JayIN
Orange Level
Joined: 18 Dec 2009
Location: SE/IN
Points: 1982
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 8:20pm |
|
No oil pump???? Whats that extra part laying on the workbench? Is it important????LOL!!! Dang!!!! Talk about having a bad day!!!!
|
|
sometimes I walk out to my shop and look around and think "Who's the idiot that owns this place?"
|
|
DougS
Orange Level
Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Location: Iowa
Points: 2490
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 22 Jan 2019 at 5:47am |
|
Good news if new mains are all it needs. Bad news if it trashed the crankshaft.
|
|
allisrutledge
Orange Level
Joined: 30 Mar 2010
Location: SurgoinsvilleTN
Points: 1360
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 22 Jan 2019 at 6:42am |
|
Keith, if the builder didn't install the cam bearings correct I would have to wonder about timing ,valves ,head torque and all the other common sense things that could be wrong. Sorry but it would lead me to want to at least get a gasket set and tear it down. Not to mention the clutch
|
|
Allis Chalmers still exist in my mind and barns
|
|
CTuckerNWIL
Orange Level
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: NW Illinois
Points: 22825
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 22 Jan 2019 at 9:05am |
 allisrutledge wrote:
Keith, if the builder didn't install the cam bearings correct I would have to wonder about timing ,valves ,head torque and all the other common sense things that could be wrong. Sorry but it would lead me to want to at least get a gasket set and tear it down. Not to mention the clutch |
X2 
|
|
|
|
OldSchoolRecovery
Silver Level
Joined: 06 Nov 2015
Location: Eagle River, WI
Points: 301
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 22 Jan 2019 at 1:05pm |
If the tractor was started without an oil pump, there is no order in which bearing(s) will fail first, however, every bearing surface was between 1-100% failure.
So, if it was me, I would replace just about everything bearing related, especially the cam lobes as they must have a lot of lube upon startup. Which they did not have.
With that said, when a running motor that had oil pressure before catastrophy occurs, then there is an order of failure. Then you can see what happened first. On small block Chebbies, when we raced them, the first rod journal would get wiped out and then the mains.
If you think it had a oil pump when started, then I would be checking cam bearings for oil port line up and also if the main bearings where put in upside down.
Crazier things have happened.
|
|
tractorboy
Silver Level
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Location: southern Va
Points: 475
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 22 Jan 2019 at 4:16pm |
|
So the center cam bushing has one hole & one is blocked off because of wrong bushing used. Is this what caused the failure ??? If so where do you buy bushings with 2 holes for the early 17s ???
|
|
Alvin M
Orange Level
Joined: 24 Jun 2018
Location: PA
Points: 806
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 22 Jan 2019 at 4:49pm |
|
reliance has the one with 2 holes most kit sell the ones with 1 hole part # 70229952 is the one with 2 holes make sure line up the holes in the block i drilled the other hole lots of times that is way the brgs did not get oil
|
|
JohnCO
Orange Level
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Niwot Colo
Points: 8992
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 22 Jan 2019 at 4:58pm |
Hopefully the price was right, especially if you had to get the engine out of the basement. I didn't quite understand your post. Do you think the engine was run or maybe it was just partially assembled, incorrectly, and the guy didn't get around to figuring out the problems?
|
|
"If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer"
Allis Express participant
|
|
tractorboy
Silver Level
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Location: southern Va
Points: 475
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 22 Jan 2019 at 5:41pm |
|
thanks alvin, I'll get the replacement crank turned, new mains & rod bearings correct cam bushings, oil pump, should be ready to go ! John, I saw this 17 at an estate sale, mentioned it to my sons & they showed up with it on my birthday. Tractor was complete & looks good. It came w/ replacement crank & bearings at sale. Engine is apart in my basement. I think center cam bushing blocked oil flow . keith so va
|
|
JayIN
Orange Level
Joined: 18 Dec 2009
Location: SE/IN
Points: 1982
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 8:29am |
|
"It had no oil pump when I dropped the pan". Well, that is the reason it seized.What am I not getting?
|
|
sometimes I walk out to my shop and look around and think "Who's the idiot that owns this place?"
|
|
allisrutledge
Orange Level
Joined: 30 Mar 2010
Location: SurgoinsvilleTN
Points: 1360
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 11:30am |
|
Jay, I would bet by it being an estate sale the original owner may not be around any more, may have been apart to fix and someone just stuck it together to sale?
|
|
Allis Chalmers still exist in my mind and barns
|
|
tractorboy
Silver Level
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Location: southern Va
Points: 475
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 5:25pm |
|
allisrutledge you are correct, previous owner had dropped pan to inspect [only had 2 bolts in pan]. No oil or pump was there, but had a replacement crank & bearings with reciept from local dealer. guess he never got to it. Now how do you drive cam bushings out/in without a special tool???
|
|
JayIN
Orange Level
Joined: 18 Dec 2009
Location: SE/IN
Points: 1982
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 5:51pm |
|
Ok I see. Thanks!
|
|
sometimes I walk out to my shop and look around and think "Who's the idiot that owns this place?"
|
|
Gary(VA)
Silver Level
Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Location: Troutville, VA
Points: 341
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 6:11pm |
|
tractorboy,
Where in Southern Virginia are you? I've got a cambushing installer but I'm near Roanoke.
|
|
DiyDave
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Gambrills, MD
Points: 54424
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 6:15pm |
tractorboy wrote:
allisrutledge you are correct, previous owner had dropped pan to inspect [only had 2 bolts in pan]. No oil or pump was there, but had a replacement crank & bearings with reciept from local dealer. guess he never got to it. Now how do you drive cam bushings out/in without a special tool??? |
If you don't have a driver you can use a oak or locust piece of wood, turned down on a lathe, to a snug fit, in the bore for the cam. Hardest wood you can find, won't harm the bushings, may also help to get the block as warm as possiblr, and the bushings as cold as possible... 
|
|
WF owner
Orange Level
Joined: 12 May 2013
Location: Bombay NY
Points: 5057
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 24 Jan 2019 at 5:27am |
|
I now have a cam bearing driver, but before that I used a hard plastic ring backed by a round piece of steel that I drilled a hole in (which amounted to a large washer). I welded a piece of all thread in a piece of pipe for a driver.
|
|
Gary Burnett
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Virginia
Points: 3101
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 24 Jan 2019 at 8:34am |
I have a parts D17 engine block was bad other parts look good plus I have another engine I'll be getting back out of a D17 Series IV that is getting a replacement motor now.I'm just North of Charlottesville.
|
|
tractorboy
Silver Level
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Location: southern Va
Points: 475
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 24 Jan 2019 at 11:22am |
|
Thanks gary let me get the bushings & i'll see what I come up with. I'm south of so boston. Gary B, I'll keep that in mind got a guy checking on a oil pump, thanks . Got the pistons out, seems he didn't follow the book the # 3 cylinder is scarred up. Hope to hone tonight will see how much scarring i can remove. Sure hope the old farmer didn't pay someone for the labor to mess up new rebuild kit!!
|
|
B26240
Orange Level
Joined: 21 Nov 2009
Location: mn
Points: 3866
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 24 Jan 2019 at 3:37pm |
|
Tractor man; Now that you have found further damage (scratched up liner) I would strip down the block completely and clean all oil passages to remove all the metal grindings. I would also take the rods to a engine machine shop and have them checked (that they aren't bent) and resized if needed
|
|
OldSchoolRecovery
Silver Level
Joined: 06 Nov 2015
Location: Eagle River, WI
Points: 301
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 25 Jan 2019 at 9:42am |
I have seen more than once, a rebuilt engine being started without any oil. Whether the builder got so excited that he forgot to put oil in or what happened, but it does.
That would explain the assembly lube on the mains.
That could explain the scratches in the #3 bore.
But, if the engine locked at a low rpm, then everything that didn't burn up from lack of oil should be fine.
A long time ago (44yrs), I helped a guy start a 327 that he assemble without any assembly lube. We were kids. We got it running, but not too sure it didn't start with half its life gone.
Carl
|
|
Clay
Orange Level
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Udall, Kansas
Points: 10019
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 25 Jan 2019 at 9:47am |
When ever I replace bearings or overhaul an engine, I like to pressurize the oil system before the engine is started.
|
|
tractorboy
Silver Level
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Location: southern Va
Points: 475
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 26 Jan 2019 at 11:24am |
|
Old school recovery, the scarred up #3 bore came from piston pin not being assembled correctly.
|
|
OldSchoolRecovery
Silver Level
Joined: 06 Nov 2015
Location: Eagle River, WI
Points: 301
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 26 Jan 2019 at 2:04pm |
Good deal.
I'm still wondering what really happened..
|
|
JayIN
Orange Level
Joined: 18 Dec 2009
Location: SE/IN
Points: 1982
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 1:46pm |
|
Wow! He shoulda just let his Mom rebuild it !!! Lol!!!
|
|
sometimes I walk out to my shop and look around and think "Who's the idiot that owns this place?"
|
|
tractorboy
Silver Level
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Location: southern Va
Points: 475
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 7:06pm |
|
Jay, I did some research from the estate sale it came from seems the owner was 70yrs young, so I doubt his mom felt up to an overhaul !!! With a little luck & some help from you guys, it'll be right this time!! Keith so. va.
|
|
