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D15 - diagnosing engine smoke |
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modirt ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 18 Jul 2018 Location: Missouri Points: 8225 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 09 Jun 2020 at 8:39am |
So had the D15 (series II) out a few times the past week....raking and tedding hay. So as usual, one bump of the starter and she starts and runs. A bit of black smoke but moments later, seems to clear up. From my perspective when sitting on the seat while running, I seldom see or notice any visible smoke. At least nothing excessive. But......neighbor was running her the other day....tedder and later rake, and from a distance, as she passed a treeline with dark background, I could notice a plume of dark colored smoke.....and now and then a hint of blue. On the blue smoke, she does not seem to use a lot of oil. After 10 hours, she may be a half quart low. She does seem to use a lot of gas. About 1/4 tank per hour.....and that is at no more than half throttle under a light load. Source of the smoke? My guesses are...... Rings for the blue smoke and if there is any blow by......which there may be. Carb adjustment for the dark smoke.....too rich? Corroded valves? Valve lash? So what are the causes and what are the remedies?
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ac45dave ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 May 2015 Location: SE(IN) Points: 1343 |
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WOW, that's a lot of gas for a d15 just tedding and raking.My ser III d17 won't use 2 gal/hr doing light bush hogging.If your using 1/4 tank an hour, that's four gal/hr. With dark smoke and that much fuel consumption I'd be looking at the carb, severely miss adjusted or a sinking float.Check air filter as well.
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54 wd-45gas ; 56 wd-45d N/F w/fact p/s ; 63 d-17 sIII N/F gas ; 60 D14 N/F ; 67 d-17 sIV N/F gas ; 63D15 sII W/F; 39rc#667 ; 2021 massey 4710 fwa ; gravely 2 wheel tractors
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21383 |
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Turn in the carbs main jet 1/2 turn at a time until the engine begins to falter. Then, back it out 1/4 turn at a time until you are happy with throttle response. That's it, unless the carb needs to be overhauled. New air filter may help. That tractor should use 1/4 tank of gas per hr while plowing, not raking hay. Oil consumption should be zero in 100 hrs of run time. Pistons, sleeves and rings and valve guides are all worn, not just one of them. Nothing you can do about it, so run it. Normally they are a 4,000 hr engine before Ohaul time.
Edited by DrAllis - 09 Jun 2020 at 9:13am |
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modirt ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 18 Jul 2018 Location: Missouri Points: 8225 |
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Have the service manual, and started and adjustment of the idle mix screw.......barely got the screw driver in the slot and idle speed dropped, smoke turned white. As I needed her to work, and she was working, decided to quit before she quit. In a few moments, smoke cleared up. On the main carb adjustment, manual says that is to be set at mostly open throttle and under load. That sounds like something that ought to be done in a shop with a dyno.
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modirt ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 18 Jul 2018 Location: Missouri Points: 8225 |
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Tach is showing something like 5,200 hours, and I doubt there has been any overhaul. So that explains a few things.
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21383 |
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You go ahead and find a dyno to do your carb adjustment. I told you how to do it and in 5 minutes you'll be set. A dyno is for full power tuning and that usually always takes more fuel.
Idle adjustment screw is usually 1 1/2 turns out from clear in.
Edited by DrAllis - 09 Jun 2020 at 9:50am |
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modirt ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 18 Jul 2018 Location: Missouri Points: 8225 |
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Well if the main jet adjustment process works doing it your way (knowing the source, I know it is), it is doable. The shop manual version was going to be a problem. Wrote that after you had posted before.....without seeing your first post. I try to operate under the premise of "first do no harm"......don't break something that isn't. But sounds like this is something that can be tinkered with and not do lasting harm. Good learning opportunity.
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modirt ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 18 Jul 2018 Location: Missouri Points: 8225 |
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BTW, on an overhaul, is that something that can be done with engine still in place, or does the tractor have to be split and engine pulled?
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21383 |
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Engine comes out so cam bearings cam be replaced and crankshaft and be reground for undersized bearing inserts.
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modirt ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 18 Jul 2018 Location: Missouri Points: 8225 |
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Update....... checked idle mix adjustment cold and it had only been backed out 3/4 to 1 full turn. Backed it out the full 1 1/2 turns and that seems to have cleaned up the black smoke at idle. Screwed main jet in about 3/4 turn before she started to sputter.....then out 1/2 turn......smoothed out......then in 1/2 turn......sputtered.....then out 1/4 turn and she smoothed out again. Left it there......and as near as I could tell, no more dark smoke. Hopefully it will dry out in a couple days and test it while working......smoke and fuel consumption. Then pulled engine dipstick and found she was 2 quarts low. Had only been 1/2 quart low when this episode started.....so that is more like 1 quart per 10 hours. That wouldn't be good. I don't really notice blue smoke all the time when running, but will keep a much closer eye on smoke and oil consumption per hours.
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DSeries4 ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Ontario, Canada Points: 7434 |
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A D15 with a healthy engine and properly set carb will not emit any visible smoke when working hard. With that amount of oil consumption, I think you've got problems. |
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'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080
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modirt ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 18 Jul 2018 Location: Missouri Points: 8225 |
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Update........with carb adjusted to where it is now, I can no longer detect any visible black smoke at idle or under use. Either close up or from a distance. Have been running it myself, so only viewpoint when running is from the tractor seat. Fuel used was 1/8th tank, over 1 1/2 hours run time pulling tedder and rake at about 1,500 rpm in 3rd high. New trick is when she is cold, if you pop the throttle open, she stalls out, but will recover. When cold, put her in gear......engage power director and she stalls as she starts to move, but usually recovers and once in motion, will pull hills and loads (climb a steep terrace) and not stall out. Stalling seems to go away once she is warmed up and running. Dip stick showed full when I started and full when I quit. So no oil lost in 1.5 hours run time and again, no visible blue smoke.
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modirt ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 18 Jul 2018 Location: Missouri Points: 8225 |
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In response to a thread a while back that I seem to recall asking for resolution to problems posed.......here goes: Tractor was put on a dyno to see what the smoke problem might be, and a knocking noise was detected. That pretty much ended the test, and source of the pops and sputtering engine never discovered. We decided to pull the engine for an overhaul. What we discovered was one of the clips holding the wrist pin in #1 cylinder had fell out at some point. Clip would have been captured inside the cavity of the piston, but was free to pound around until it was eaten into metalic dust......and scored the sleeve in the process. If memory serves, with clip missing wrist pin was free to float and was doing damage on the other side. Found deep grooves cut in the sleeve that would have allowed oil to bypass rings and was probably the source of the blue oil. Compression on that piston about 115. Others were closer to 150. So that was also the likely source of the blow by I was seeing. Rod bearing on #1 cylinder was badly worn and about to let go. All other bearings and seals worn but still OK. Valve guides and valves worn but were not yet causing problems. But put in a rebuild kit from Reliance. So.....new pistons, sleeves, rings and wrist pins and cam and crankshaft bearings. Rods OK. Valve guides replaced. Valves ground and seats lapped. Crankshaft and cams ground. Reliance Kit was complete except for rod bearings, and when we finally found those, crankshaft had to be ground a 2nd time for the different size rod bearings. (If memory serves, went from 10 thou to 20 thou under as that was all we could find). Put a rebuild kit in the oil pump, which upped oil pressure on the gauge about 2X. Didn't look worn, but apparently was. Head gasket supplied by Reliance failed out of the gate. Wouldn't hold coolant at all. Found a replacement Victor (NOS) that worked well. Took opportunity to have radiator checked and wound up replacing the core. Also needed new radiator cap. Installed new plugs (Autolite 303......US made NOS), Blue Point points and condenser. Made switch to 10w-30 oil for diesel engines. Put her all back together and she fired right up! Had a few minor oil leaks around governor lines and seals, but otherwise all good, including the front crankshaft seal, which is a bear to get back on. Shop manual calls for a special install tool that doesn't exist, so I wound up making my own. Parts alone for the rebuild probably exceeded value of the tractor and with hired labor to help, far exceeds value of tractor. Probably not a good financial decision, but she runs like a top now. Used her again for raking and tedding and engine sounds different and responds different to a load. Hard to describe but you guys familiar with the sound of that engine will know what I'm talking about. She has gone from something on her last legs and life support to workhorse.
Edited by modirt - 18 Jul 2021 at 11:25am |
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steve(ill) ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 85549 |
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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AC720Man ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 10 Oct 2016 Location: Shenandoah, Va Points: 5131 |
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Our D15 II definitely sounds better and runs much better after we did a full rebuild including head work. Runs so much better, head work probably helped the most. Valve guides were shot as well as a much needed valve job.
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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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PaulB ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Rocky Ridge Md Points: 4929 |
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Tractors, unlike cars (with automatic chokes) Need to warm up before using when the carb is properly set. When your D15 was using too much gas it would start and take right off. Now it needs to be warmed up. No big deal use it as it's intended
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If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits. If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY |
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EPALLIS ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Illinois Points: 1146 |
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The D-15 is my all time favorite. Thanks for keeping another one running. It is appreciated!
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modirt ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 18 Jul 2018 Location: Missouri Points: 8225 |
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Back story on the D15, it was a one owner tractor that sat idle in barn across the road from me for 20 years....as it was in bad shape and needed all kinds of work. Owners said if I could get it running I could have it. Guy helping me doing the wrenching is 40 year plus Allis mechanic whose father was the one who delivered it to the farm new in 1963. Dad was working at that same Allis dealership then and later bought it (dealership). Dad is now in his 90's and still owns the shop....that on any given day has about 6 to 8 AC tractors in it being repaired. That tractor has not gone far in life. About 100 yards from where it started.
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modirt ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 18 Jul 2018 Location: Missouri Points: 8225 |
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That is exactly how she is now. Needs to warm up a bit or will stall out. Good to know.
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ACinSC ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 16 Dec 2015 Location: South Carolina Points: 2904 |
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Thanks for the update Howard . Anything D 15 related interests me . Glad you got it all figured out . Thanks !
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