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D-14 backhoe help

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Treefeller View Drop Down
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    Posted: 19 Nov 2018 at 5:56pm
I am new to this, my apologies. I have a D-14 with a Wagner loader and backhoe. D-14 is a 1950/51 by serial #, the backhoe is a Wagner model 60 POW'R HO. I've owned it for 20 yrs or so. When I first bought it, the machine worked well. As it has aged I noticed that while using the hoe it would stop functioning. I would change the diverter valve back to the loader, wait a few minutes and get the hoe functioning again. This 'wait time' has continued to grow over the years. The loader never has any issues. From looking at a parts manual I have, I can tell someone eliminated the hyd filter somewhere along the line and changed the plumbing to the swing cylinders (not plumbed as shown in manual) and added flow controllers to slow the swing. I know I should put a filter back but want to figure out why the hoe acts as it does before I do. I have mentioned my problem to my network of mechanical buddies and it's been suggested that I might have a internal deteriorated hose (in the hoe circuit) which blocks flow at just the wrong time. I do have a bunch of ancient hoses on the machine. All advice welcomed.
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Jim.ME View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim.ME Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 5:24am
Welcome,

First off you need to re-visit your tractor serial number or year. What is your complete serial number? The D14 production years were 1957 to 1960.

Does the loader function immediately when you change the diverter valve? If it does, it sounds like the problem is on the hoe side of the diverter valve and could be a hose since it goes away after the pressure is removed for a bit.
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Eric B View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eric B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 12:30pm
If I were you I would remove any relief valve associated with the hoe. Should likely be somewhere on the control valve assembly for the hoe as it may be sticking open and very slow coming back... just a thought, I've not had this problem myself.
Currently- WD,WC,3WF's,2 D14's B. Previously- I 600,TL745,200,FL9,FR12,H3,816 LBH. Earth has no sorrow that Heaven cannot heal!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DiyDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 6:46pm
Sounds like a hose flap, to me...Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coke-in-MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 6:52pm
Are all functions of the hoe effected ? So is curl of bucket good and swing bad or dipper or crowd on arm all effected ? 
 This might be the return side of these operations or the return line from hoe valves , OR is it just one operation that is effected ? 
 Could be supply - am not sure if that valve body has a bypass like later units did where oil from one side of cylinder is diverted to opposite side to speed up movement - regenerative cycling was used on many TLB machines   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eric B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 9:16pm
So if the problem is a "hose flap" or a "deteriorating hose"... wouldn't the pump be cavitating or squealing from lack of oil being on the side from the tank to the pump? Or if it's on the pressure side either a pressure relief valve has to open or the hose would bust or you stall the engine... a good pump is not going to take NO for an answer without some noticeable evidence??
Currently- WD,WC,3WF's,2 D14's B. Previously- I 600,TL745,200,FL9,FR12,H3,816 LBH. Earth has no sorrow that Heaven cannot heal!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim.ME Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2018 at 5:34am
I won't rule out a possible issue with a relief valve. As far as a hose flap; if it is on the pressure side it won't restrict oil to the pump suction which should be coming from a reservoir. I have seen/chased hose flaps in pressure hoses that did not burst the hose. I will say, I have seen them more often in new hoses that were assembled improperly.

We are assuming his pump is good, but after 20 years or so it sounds like the system responding differently as it ages. There could be many things plugging up running after with no filter. Does he have snap couplers in the system that are getting worn and restricting flows or plugging? Perhaps when he returns to the post answers the questions raised thus far; more info can be gained to help him solve the problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Treefeller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2018 at 4:20pm
Serial number is 14246, to the best of my ability. The '2' is quite hard to see, could be a 3,8 or 9? The other numbers are very legible. As far as my incorrect year statement, I repeated info gained from a AGCO dealer owner, in his '80's, who still stocked parts for my machine when I first bought it (pre-internet). Never considered looking up production dates, feeling a bit silly.
Question answers:
All hoe functions affected, lift,dipper and curl. Can't say if stabilizers are affected as situation occurs while digging under load, never tried to see if stabilizers worked. Situation does not occur, say after storage when hoe is being lifted into transport position (no load).

As soon as diverter valve is put into loader position, loader works immediately and without fail....always. I had considered a pump issue but this fact steered me away from that. The up/down control valve does stick a bit, no leaking though. No leaks on lift/dump cylinders. 

There is no pump squealing, no engine stalling when situation occurs. Pump is mounted in front of radiator feeding loader and hoe.

Hoe looks as if it is detachable, so pressure line that feeds hoe has a quick coupler in it. The return line does not, although this looks to be changed at some point. All control valves on hoe leak a bit when actuated, stabilizer cylinders leak down while stored. 

A bit of history, I purchased the D-14 from an avid John Deere restorer, who did a 'soft' resto to the D-14. Paint, new tires, head/valve rebuild, hoses where needed. He added in-line flow controllers to both hoe swing cylinders, he said the machine rotated way to fast...dangerous even. Replaced the loader dump cylinder w/ aftermarket cyl. After getting the D-14, I changed to 12v(kept generator used resistor), rebuilt generator, rebuilt starter, rebuilt lift, dipper and curl cyls on hoe. 

I have a International Harvester service manual for the hoe/loader, apparently IH provided parts for Wagner products at some point? The exploded views show my hoe pretty much as it sits today. Even shows where the filter used to be located and the missing quick coupler on return line of hoe. It also shows a "Cushion Vavle Assembly" mounted to the interior of hoe frame (facing rear of tractor). On my machine the CVA is abadoned. No lines in or out of it....what does a CVA do? Two lines from the main valve body feed the CVA then two lines go on to swing cylinders. I have noticed that after a long period of storage the first time you swing hoe the opposing cylinder woiuld push hyd oil out the vent (on the cylinder). This happens only on the initial swing, I assumed the swing cylinders needed rebuilding and hyd oil seeped past the seals while in storage. This may be a totally separate issue, unrelated to lift,dipper,curl issue? 

Hope I didn't miss any ques.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim.ME Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2018 at 6:22pm
As for your serial number 14246 falls in the 1958 range, likewise if the 2 is a 3 or 8. If the 2 is a 9 it moves into the 1959 range.

Since the loader works as soon as you shift the diverter valve, and you have not said the loader ever stops working, I would not lean to a pump problem either. Leaks should not stop the hoe from functioning.

Do you have any pressure gauges of the right range you could tap into the system to check pressures? Does the manual tell you what the main relief of the hoe is set at? You can pull the main relief and check it, but will need to adjust it back to spec if you take it apart. Since everything stops the problem would most likely be between the diverter valve and the main relief of the hoe. If you can put a gauge at the hoe side of the diverter and another before the main relief, when it stops you can see how far it has pressure. If the diverter has good pressure and it is lost before the main relief it would indicate the issue is in the pressure hose or snap coupling. If pressures at both drop off, it would an indication of the main relief hanging and dumping the pressure as Eric B noted. If you add fittings for testing get hydraulic rated fittings. Hardware store fittings can fail and be dangerous when they do.

Just my thoughts of a way to follow the pressure to where it is lost. I'm sure there will be some other thoughts for troubleshooting that may work as well or better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DiyDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2018 at 6:27pm
Another thought occurs, check the added flow controllers, and the QD fitting.  If there is any debris loose, in the system, It may lodge there...Wink
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