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D10 Tranny Gears

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bincitybandit View Drop Down
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    Posted: 16 Jan 2021 at 2:02pm
I am in the middle of replacing a few gears in my D10, because it won't stay in 3rd gear.  I got 3rd & reverse gears for the pinion shaft from DJS Tractor, and started going back together today.  

I have found that 3rd gear is just a hair thicker than the original gear, but reverse is MUCH thicker and I am thinking this will not work.  I notice now after the fact that all the gears on the vendor websites that I normally buy from say they are for a much later tractor than mine, which is an earlier D10, S/N 1731.

Looking for thoughts or advice, where to source the gears for my tractor because all of the ones I see online from restoration vendors seem to be for later model D series tractors.
ALLIS: B, WC, G, G, D10, D12, D14, D14(NF), D15, D17, D17(NF), D19, D21, D21
MINNEAPOLIS MOLINE: U, U, U(NF), GB
JOHN DEERE: L
FORD: 871 Select-O-Speed
CASE: 600 Combine
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PaulB View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaulB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2021 at 3:20pm
The transmission gears in the CA, D10/12/14/15 tractors are interchangeable. However only in complete sets, asthere were running changes in many of the gears. If you get all of the gears for a given serial number range you can use them. Otherwise you'll need to get a machine shop to grind the thicker gears to match your original thinner gears. 
If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
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DrAllis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2021 at 3:27pm
The reverse idler gear on a D-15 is wider and is partially meshed when shifted into third gear. This is normal. This also can create a bit of a growl when operating in third gear. This too is normal.  I'm not there looking at it and have never had a D-10/12 tranny apart, but I've done several D-15 series 2's and this reverse idler thing is the way it is. In 1st, 2nd and 4th the reverse idler touches nothing. In third it makes contact. Don't worry about that.
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bincitybandit View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bincitybandit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2021 at 9:32am
Alright, after reading more in depth it seems that as long as you are replacing both 3rd and Reverse, these new gears should work for my tractor.  When you put them alone along side the old ones the thickness difference is notable, however when you engage the two gears with one another, they are exactly the same as the old ones are engaged.  So I went ahead and started reassembly.

My next problem though is I stripped out the adjusting nut for the pinion shaft while going back together, so I need to find a new one of those and hope the threads on the shaft itself are going to be ok.
ALLIS: B, WC, G, G, D10, D12, D14, D14(NF), D15, D17, D17(NF), D19, D21, D21
MINNEAPOLIS MOLINE: U, U, U(NF), GB
JOHN DEERE: L
FORD: 871 Select-O-Speed
CASE: 600 Combine
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bincitybandit View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bincitybandit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2021 at 8:56am
Well, I got everything back together and was able to test drive the tractor.  Much to my dismay, the problem still persists & it won't stay in 3rd gear.  Not really understanding why.  The cogs on third gear and reverse gear were visibly in horrible condition so I was certain this was going to solve the issue.  I replaced 3rd gear & reverse on the pinion shaft as well as the reverse idler.  Also replaced bearings on both the pinion & main shaft.  Everything seemed to go back together nicely, everything was tight was moved freely by hand.

Is it possible there could be an issue with shift forks or detent?  I've read some on this site about replacing or even modifying the forks or detent locations to get the gears to engage further.  Just not sure what the steps are involved to do so.  I am not looking forward to tearing the tractor completely down again.
ALLIS: B, WC, G, G, D10, D12, D14, D14(NF), D15, D17, D17(NF), D19, D21, D21
MINNEAPOLIS MOLINE: U, U, U(NF), GB
JOHN DEERE: L
FORD: 871 Select-O-Speed
CASE: 600 Combine
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JoeO(CMO) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeO(CMO) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2021 at 11:12am
How were the collars that slide?




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alex09(WI) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2021 at 11:37am
When I go through a D10-D15 transmission, I always move the detents to get a full engagement of the cogs. Sometimes I modify the collars to get even more engagement.

Here is a test you can do: With tractor off, sit in the seat and shift into 3rd gear. take your hand off the shifter. Now take the palm of your hand and push the shifter hard and try to push even further into gear. If shifter moves more, that means there is more area of the cogs that could be meshed. To take advantage of this further mesh of the gears, the detent must be moved.

The problem from the factory was the gear cogs are only set to mesh 1/8" maybe 3/16". That is not enough when you get operators who are in a hurry and force the gears in. When the cogs get rounded off, say 1/8", then there is nothing left to hold gears engaged and the rounded off cogs act as a wedge and push the gears apart. Engineering fail from the factory.

To remedy this, we learn not to grind gears, but also to make the transmssion better, one can move the detents so the gear coggs engage fully, up to 1/4". The problem is to determine how much the detent groove in the shift rail can be moved, because with the shift cover installed, there is no way to physically see the gap between gears. In a perfect world, with the shift cover off, one would use playdough-like material about 1/4" bead and put it on 3rd gear in line with the top of the shift cogs. Then install the shift cover with gears in Neutral and shift into 3rd, being careful not to go further into gear than the detent allows. Shift back into Neutral and remove shift cover. Now the playdough will have compressed when you shifted the 3rd/2nd collar to engage 3rd gear. Since you didn't push the shifter past the detent to engage 3rd gear fully, the thickness of the compressed playdough (X), will be the exact measurement to move the 3rd gear detent.

To functionally move the detent groove, remove the 2nd/3rd shifting rail from the cover. Get a measurement from the center of the detent groove to the end of the the rail. Weld groove closed. Now take your old measurement (X) and add it to the thickness of the playdough (Y) and machine new detent groove with the center of the groove according to the sum of the measurements (Z). X+Y=Z That will get the detent as close to spot on as possible with full engagement of the gear cogs. Same procedure with any other gear.

A note about the aftermarket gears vs new OEM gears. During a D10 trans job last week, I noticed the customers supplied aftermarket gears were not machined as precisely and seemed to have more of the cog machined off at a taper than the OEM gears.
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Alex09(WI) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alex09(WI) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2021 at 11:41am
Originally posted by JoeO(CMO) JoeO(CMO) wrote:

How were the collars that slide?


Collar that slides to engage 3rd has the reverse gear on it, which if I am reading correctly, he replaced with new aftermarket.
www.awtractor.com
A&W TRACTOR 920-598-1287
KEEPING ALLIS-CHALMERS IN THE FIELDS THROUGH THE 21ST CENTURY
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charlie175 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2021 at 12:54pm
Shift fork worn or bent? Not allowing it to fully engage 3rd?
Charlie

'48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bincitybandit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2021 at 6:51pm
Just for clarification, when I read about welding the detent notch and then grinding a new one, we are talking about in the shift rod correct?
ALLIS: B, WC, G, G, D10, D12, D14, D14(NF), D15, D17, D17(NF), D19, D21, D21
MINNEAPOLIS MOLINE: U, U, U(NF), GB
JOHN DEERE: L
FORD: 871 Select-O-Speed
CASE: 600 Combine
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2021 at 8:02am
Shift rail for third gear detent. Changing the stroke 1/8" usually is enough, but 1/4" would always be too much. Also purchase a 70229458 spring from AGCO to place inside of the detent spring for more detent spring pressure. I go so far as grind a new detent notch for the neutral detent spring and double spring it as well. When I get done it takes quite a yank to get it out of third gear. Nothing fancy for tooling. A die grinder with a 3/8" carbide bit, a pair of 6 inch calipers and a good vise to hold things. Be careful when removing the shift rail because balls and springs can wind up in the next county if you aren't prepared. Also some interlock pins might fall out of place, don't lose them. Making new detent just a tick deeper isn't a bad idea either. EDIT:  The reference to the neutral detent is adding a second detent for third gear, so there are TWO detent balls holding it in engagement.

Edited by DrAllis - 06 Feb 2021 at 8:08pm
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