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Connecting rods

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unstylish_ View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unstylish_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2013 at 6:21am
See, the problem with Pank is that he cannot condone what he does not understand. Therefore, he must not condone much... I guess max Simpson is just lucky that his motors ran well without panks attention to detail. Mitch if you are such a rod expert why didn't you use a rod that wouldnt bend like a noodle in your motor?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2013 at 7:24am
Originally posted by mlpankey mlpankey wrote:

I would like to know if max is just who doing like wi and rob. looks to me like oblonging the wrist pin bore in a press would be making  possibly a place to fracture.  sometimes you wonder if its luck and luck only that gets people on podiums


I'm sure most here would agree, it would take much more than LUCK to see MP on a podium unless it was for mbuchrd's eulogyShocked

Edited by CTuckerNWIL - 25 Jan 2013 at 7:25am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlpankey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2013 at 7:31am
Originally posted by O.P.S. Heads O.P.S. Heads wrote:

My first post was really for Ed. He was  talking about hardened 426 rods so I thought I would chime in.  I sure as hell don't know it all and never claimed to, but Max Simpson probably does. He explained his process to me on the phone and it has worked well for us. Looking back on it all I should have just emailed Ed directly.
 
Pankenstein,
 
I have been a member on this board for about three weeks. I had read it many times prior to being a member and enjoyed most of the posts. I use to think some of the boys were just pickin on you, but it's obvious you have it coming. Damn boy, you need to tune in more and broadcast less. Make your rods however you want to. But for you to second guess a guy (Max) who has made more power than you could possibly conceive ( most recent - 5 consecutive time SSD NTPA champ - 426 block ) is just dumb.
i am more second guessing understanding what you say you saw .  you or max one is who doing someone but then again if someone doesnt know the fixture that holds the rod in place for boring they could possibly think its a press. I just dont know the knowledge of poster .but i dont see oblonging a circular hole doing much but making center harder to find.  never heard the phrase i rather be lucky than good. i guess either . It doesnt take much measuring on the bearing half either to know it oblongs the hole by design to do what i posted above . however it would require the use of machine shop measuring tools . eliminating key board pullers.

Edited by mlpankey - 25 Jan 2013 at 7:36am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ken(MI) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2013 at 7:37am
I guess what puzzles me is the difficulty controlling distortion  through heat treating, proper heat treating practices minimize distortion, and I have all the respect in the world for Max Simpson, but I've never heard of distorting material prior to heat treating in order to control distortion, prior to steel reaching the austenizing temperature, it will relax and whatever stresses are in it are relieved and it will distort, usually in a very unpredictable manner, which is why thermal stress relief is the techinque used to remove stresses induced from forming and rough machining prior to finish machining and heat treating. The other factor is the material that the rods are made from in the beginning. I don't know about the 426 rods, but the majority of 125, 226 and 201 rods that I've seen were made at Atlas Drop Forge, and are nothing better than 1030 steel, salt brine quenched and tempered to about Rc 18-20 and not exactly what performance rods are made of, all the heat treating in the world won't improve garden variety materials to the level of 300M or 4340. Another point to consider is that regardless of being created from the same material, Billet rods, machined from bar stock will never equal forged rods. At the end of the day, the best rod available is forged from quality material, properly heat treated for maximum strength, and accurately machined.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rod B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2013 at 7:38am
Let's ask spankster what holds the rod bearing from spinning? He seams to think the locating tabs do that job.

Edited by Rod B - 25 Jan 2013 at 7:42am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlpankey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2013 at 7:40am
thanks ken
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlpankey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2013 at 7:44am
its obvious automotive shops arent keeping tech papers on hand or having experienced builders in the shop so heres a pdf from clevite that if you want to score points with boss for a raise by making him think your furthering your knowledge that you can down load from clevite.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2013 at 9:22am
Originally posted by Ken(MI) Ken(MI) wrote:

I guess what puzzles me is the difficulty controlling distortion  through heat treating, proper heat treating practices minimize distortion, and I have all the respect in the world for Max Simpson, but I've never heard of distorting material prior to heat treating in order to control distortion, prior to steel reaching the austenizing temperature, it will relax and whatever stresses are in it are relieved and it will distort, usually in a very unpredictable manner, which is why thermal stress relief is the techinque used to remove stresses induced from forming and rough machining prior to finish machining and heat treating. The other factor is the material that the rods are made from in the beginning. I don't know about the 426 rods, but the majority of 125, 226 and 201 rods that I've seen were made at Atlas Drop Forge, and are nothing better than 1030 steel, salt brine quenched and tempered to about Rc 18-20 and not exactly what performance rods are made of, all the heat treating in the world won't improve garden variety materials to the level of 300M or 4340. Another point to consider is that regardless of being created from the same material, Billet rods, machined from bar stock will never equal forged rods. At the end of the day, the best rod available is forged from quality material, properly heat treated for maximum strength, and accurately machined.
I would guess if he squeezed the rod across the parting line of the cap, he may have been giving himself some material for resizing. If you do like MP says and just face off the part to resize, your already to size across the part. If you squeeze the part together, then cut material from the parting line, you would have a complete clean up on the ID after resizingGeek
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlpankey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2013 at 10:08am
Originally posted by CTuckerNWIL CTuckerNWIL wrote:

Originally posted by Ken(MI) Ken(MI) wrote:

I guess what puzzles me is the difficulty controlling distortion  through heat treating, proper heat treating practices minimize distortion, and I have all the respect in the world for Max Simpson, but I've never heard of distorting material prior to heat treating in order to control distortion, prior to steel reaching the austenizing temperature, it will relax and whatever stresses are in it are relieved and it will distort, usually in a very unpredictable manner, which is why thermal stress relief is the techinque used to remove stresses induced from forming and rough machining prior to finish machining and heat treating. The other factor is the material that the rods are made from in the beginning. I don't know about the 426 rods, but the majority of 125, 226 and 201 rods that I've seen were made at Atlas Drop Forge, and are nothing better than 1030 steel, salt brine quenched and tempered to about Rc 18-20 and not exactly what performance rods are made of, all the heat treating in the world won't improve garden variety materials to the level of 300M or 4340. Another point to consider is that regardless of being created from the same material, Billet rods, machined from bar stock will never equal forged rods. At the end of the day, the best rod available is forged from quality material, properly heat treated for maximum strength, and accurately machined.
I would guess if he squeezed the rod across the parting line of the cap, he may have been giving himself some material for resizing. If you do like MP says and just face off the part to resize, your already to size across the part. If you squeeze the part together, then cut material from the parting line, you would have a complete clean up on the ID after resizingGeek
then theres the pankey way when reducing the circle by grinding the cap half grid it on angle so when tighten it pulls the sides in to have material on the sides to remove when boring. Some rods have this occurrunce in rare instances . the 426 rod might be a rare instance just not that familiar with it. either way we explored the logic . Mashing the part line in is a permanent position where the angled part line isnt when detensioned.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote injpumpEd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2013 at 10:09am
Originally posted by mlpankey mlpankey wrote:

Originally posted by O.P.S. Heads O.P.S. Heads wrote:

My first post was really for Ed. He was  talking about hardened 426 rods so I thought I would chime in.  I sure as hell don't know it all and never claimed to, but Max Simpson probably does. He explained his process to me on the phone and it has worked well for us. Looking back on it all I should have just emailed Ed directly.
 
Pankenstein,
 
I have been a member on this board for about three weeks. I had read it many times prior to being a member and enjoyed most of the posts. I use to think some of the boys were just pickin on you, but it's obvious you have it coming. Damn boy, you need to tune in more and broadcast less. Make your rods however you want to. But for you to second guess a guy (Max) who has made more power than you could possibly conceive ( most recent - 5 consecutive time SSD NTPA champ - 426 block ) is just dumb. It is funny, you really don't know the knowledge of any posters here! OPS is one of the most knowledgeable guys on here. I'm thankful he finally joined, sharing his knowledge, not slamming everyone with arrogance.
i am more second guessing understanding what you say you saw .  you or max one is who doing someone but then again if someone doesnt know the fixture that holds the rod in place for boring they could possibly think its a press. I just dont know the knowledge of poster .but i dont see oblonging a circular hole doing much but making center harder to find.  never heard the phrase i rather be lucky than good. i guess either . It doesnt take much measuring on the bearing half either to know it oblongs the hole by design to do what i posted above . however it would require the use of machine shop measuring tools . eliminating key board pullers.
210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlpankey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2013 at 10:21am
Originally posted by injpumpEd injpumpEd wrote:

Originally posted by mlpankey mlpankey wrote:

Originally posted by O.P.S. Heads O.P.S. Heads wrote:

My first post was really for Ed. He was  talking about hardened 426 rods so I thought I would chime in.  I sure as hell don't know it all and never claimed to, but Max Simpson probably does. He explained his process to me on the phone and it has worked well for us. Looking back on it all I should have just emailed Ed directly.
 
Pankenstein,
 
I have been a member on this board for about three weeks. I had read it many times prior to being a member and enjoyed most of the posts. I use to think some of the boys were just pickin on you, but it's obvious you have it coming. Damn boy, you need to tune in more and broadcast less. Make your rods however you want to. But for you to second guess a guy (Max) who has made more power than you could possibly conceive ( most recent - 5 consecutive time SSD NTPA champ - 426 block ) is just dumb. It is funny, you really don't know the knowledge of any posters here! OPS is one of the most knowledgeable guys on here. I'm thankful he finally joined, sharing his knowledge, not slamming everyone with arrogance.
i am more second guessing understanding what you say you saw .  you or max one is who doing someone but then again if someone doesnt know the fixture that holds the rod in place for boring they could possibly think its a press. I just dont know the knowledge of poster .but i dont see oblonging a circular hole doing much but making center harder to find.  never heard the phrase i rather be lucky than good. i guess either . It doesnt take much measuring on the bearing half either to know it oblongs the hole by design to do what i posted above . however it would require the use of machine shop measuring tools . eliminating key board pullers.
yeap one doesnt usually want to remove material in the parting line area due to there being less material there cause of rod bolts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlpankey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2013 at 10:23am
Originally posted by mlpankey mlpankey wrote:

Originally posted by injpumpEd injpumpEd wrote:

Originally posted by mlpankey mlpankey wrote:

Originally posted by O.P.S. Heads O.P.S. Heads wrote:

My first post was really for Ed. He was  talking about hardened 426 rods so I thought I would chime in.  I sure as hell don't know it all and never claimed to, but Max Simpson probably does. He explained his process to me on the phone and it has worked well for us. Looking back on it all I should have just emailed Ed directly.
 
Pankenstein,
 
I have been a member on this board for about three weeks. I had read it many times prior to being a member and enjoyed most of the posts. I use to think some of the boys were just pickin on you, but it's obvious you have it coming. Damn boy, you need to tune in more and broadcast less. Make your rods however you want to. But for you to second guess a guy (Max) who has made more power than you could possibly conceive ( most recent - 5 consecutive time SSD NTPA champ - 426 block ) is just dumb. It is funny, you really don't know the knowledge of any posters here! OPS is one of the most knowledgeable guys on here. I'm thankful he finally joined, sharing his knowledge, not slamming everyone with arrogance.
i am more second guessing understanding what you say you saw .  you or max one is who doing someone but then again if someone doesnt know the fixture that holds the rod in place for boring they could possibly think its a press. I just dont know the knowledge of poster .but i dont see oblonging a circular hole doing much but making center harder to find.  never heard the phrase i rather be lucky than good. i guess either . It doesnt take much measuring on the bearing half either to know it oblongs the hole by design to do what i posted above . however it would require the use of machine shop measuring tools . eliminating key board pullers.
yeap one doesnt usually want to remove (excess material ) more than needed for cleanup in the parting line area due to there being less material there cause of rod bolts.
again we have explored the reasoning through the thought provoking processes for answeres and alternative ways to accomplish

Edited by mlpankey - 25 Jan 2013 at 10:25am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Butch(OH) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2013 at 10:44am
Originally posted by mlpankey mlpankey wrote:

 again we have explored the reasoning through the thought provoking processes for answeres and alternative ways to accomplish

LOLLOL LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL 

Translation,,,
Another basic subject turned into a soap opera by the resident V. I.

Next is breathing and walking at the same time, stay tuned! 

 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wi50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2013 at 11:26am
I find it real hard to beleve that someone with so much self proclaimed knowledge isn't out winning hooks and only has a pile of junk to show for forgetting (not knowing) the most basic principels of engine design.  In his last thread I had to show pictures and explain in detail how to position rods, explain cap angles, etc in order to get enough clearance for his immaginary build.
 
"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlpankey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2013 at 12:13pm
my pictures were of engines assembled not just parts laying around like yours wi .  Your always around like rob though learning from every post i  write from evey detail .  My students read kens post as well as Dr.

Edited by mlpankey - 25 Jan 2013 at 12:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote injpumpEd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2013 at 12:23pm
Originally posted by mlpankey mlpankey wrote:

my pictures were of engines assembled not just parts laying around like yours wi .  Your always around like rob though learning from every post i  write from evey detail .  My students read kens post as well as Dr.
WOW! You really are an arrogant idiot!
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I would like to see some of your pictures pank.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ihateillinoisnazis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2013 at 12:28pm
Hahah Pankey you're like herpes, always around, you never know when or where you will show up, and when you do it's painful.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlpankey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2013 at 12:52pm
Originally posted by Ihateillinoisnazis Ihateillinoisnazis wrote:

Hahah Pankey you're like herpes, always around, you never know when or where you will show up, and when you do it's painful.
more the like the aniboitics
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ihateillinoisnazis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2013 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by mlpankey mlpankey wrote:

Originally posted by Ihateillinoisnazis Ihateillinoisnazis wrote:

Hahah Pankey you're like herpes, always around, you never know when or where you will show up, and when you do it's painful.
more the like the aniboitics


"Anibiotics" is that antibiotics retarded brother?    ... Also no cure for herp. Hence why you never go away.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wi50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2013 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by Rod B Rod B wrote:

Originally posted by mlpankey mlpankey wrote:

Wheres Rod . I though he might want to talk about large wide rod bearings and friction robing horsepower


Sure I'll teach you a thing or two on connecting rods.

First lesson is to listen to those who know more than you. In this instance that would be spankey listening to everybody else. A few forum members said not to use buda rods in his engine but he did anyway. Guess what the outcome was? They were right and spankey was wrong.

Bent rods rob horsepower. Useing unsuited junk in the first place causes bent rods. Being an idiot causes one to use unsuited junk. Anyone care to guess what the common denominator is?

Nice job on the rods WI. spankster's jealous. Again.
 
 
To answer your question as to what the common denominator is.  It's not hard to figure out that if we reduce pank to his constitute elements we'd be left with a pool of jizz and glitter.


Edited by wi50 - 25 Jan 2013 at 1:18pm
"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlpankey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2013 at 1:28pm

well they are two on here that posted a while back that rods bend because they arent long enough .material and heat treating wasnt the problem they said it was only length . those two must have never had a twig or wire rope in their hands to know the longer it is the easier it is to bend. Kens post also tells why to stay away from rods machined out of bar stock that one of the two shows in pictures and sells on how great they are. Some people just havent ever got the assembled and ran product up to the horsepower to know the limitations yet.



Edited by mlpankey - 25 Jan 2013 at 1:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rod B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2013 at 2:55pm
Why did you want billet rods to replace the ones you bent? Changeing your ideals again.

Nice job with the link proveing you wrong about locking tabs holding the rod bearing from spinning.




Edited by Rod B - 25 Jan 2013 at 2:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlpankey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2013 at 3:32pm
Originally posted by Rod B Rod B wrote:

Why did you want billet rods to replace the ones you bent? Changeing your ideals again.

Nice job with the link proveing you wrong about locking tabs holding the rod bearing from spinning.


i search the pdf for the word tab and found nothing just as a proof read. the crush will keep one from spinning but if you can answere knowledgeable why is it when one with locking tabs has spun the tabs are torn off of the spun bearing.  I wanted forged billet rods not machined out of billet stock . that was the reason we used the atlas rods we had issues with machined out of billet stock rods in a diesel pulling truck just like ken in michigan posted in his post. just like i posted when you and another was who doing people with rod length fallacy.  Now he is shortening h rods to get the stroke that he argued was a waste of time due to head flow and that they were a limit to cubic inches due solely to cylinder head flow. and that increasing the cubic inches would not increase power due to flow of the head. Which I would say he has reconsidered that by his attempts to make people on the site believe he can and has built some large stroke engines. As does his 240 or 300plus  moline engine not pull with 500 cubic inch engines .just some of my observations.

Edited by mlpankey - 25 Jan 2013 at 3:55pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rod B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2013 at 6:55pm
So crush holds the bearing shell. Just makeing sure as you argued for days that those tabs did all the work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlpankey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2013 at 8:52pm
Originally posted by Rod B Rod B wrote:

So crush holds the bearing shell. Just makeing sure as you argued for days that those tabs did all the work.
the tabs do help after all they are called locking tabs . If they had no effect they wouldnt be broken off a spun bearing now would they. I have argued that with a bearing rep at the shop also . All he had to do to win the argument is explain why they break off if they have no effect on holding the bearing in place . he and you still havent attempted to answere .
maybe two things will come from this post . one is mufflerbolts will start paying more detail to bearings and designs. second is people will pay extra for the forged billet rods instead of machined rods made from billet stock.

Edited by mlpankey - 25 Jan 2013 at 9:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rod B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2013 at 5:48am
Can you explain why you used rods forged from 1030 steel in your engine?

Why you didn't heat treat them?

Why you used them in a soft state when heat treating would be better? Why not buy billet rods which would be stronger than the 1030 forged and 1030 forged and heat treated. Strong enough to hold up in your engine.

What material is best for billet rods 4340 or 4140 pre-hard? Both offer exponential strength charistics over your selected 1030, even if you would have heat treated. With a set of billet rods you'd still be pulling.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlpankey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2013 at 6:27am
With a set of forged billet rods that engine woud still be running. So yes dont compromise like i did that its a rod used in a diesel or its 4340 bar stock that they are machined from.or you will have a engine like one of mine setting scraped on a pallet
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rod B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2013 at 6:35am
It's odd that Buda rods are used in 15 hp per cylinder engines. You used them in a pulling engine and expected them to hold hopeing to make 200 hp with your airflow numbers. Yet you claim that 1cfm will make 2hp. That would mean your engines are poorly designed and that you don't know much about engines, airflow or the world in general.

By the looks of your crankshaft and balancing work that engine should have vibration hardened itself.

Explain how you work so hard to make junk when you claim to know so much and have nothing to show.

Explain why Murphys, G-Tool, R&R, and other rod manufacturers make rods from billet bar stock for the tractor pulling arena?

Edited by Rod B - 26 Jan 2013 at 6:38am
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Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Location: Vols country
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlpankey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2013 at 6:37am
Originally posted by mlpankey mlpankey wrote:

With a set of forged billet rods that engine woud still be running. So yes dont compromise like i did that its a rod used in a diesel or its 4340 bar stock that they are machined from.or you will have a engine like one of mine setting scraped on a pallet
you see about half way through finishing the goal of building a engine with the highest horsepower got clouded by budget. If it hadnt titanium would have been in the bottom end like it was in the top end.
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